Black Faced Morris Dancers Banned at ShrewsburyFolk Festival

I haven't said there is never an issue, only that I don't think there is one with the blackened faces of Morris dancers. They are not doing anything that in any way insults or is unpleasant about people whose faces are naturally 'black'.

If you or anyone can tell me what was the problem with the blackened faces, gj, I am very happy to accept that there was a problem. So far, I haven't understood what the problem was in the instance we are talking about. I do not see blackened faces or whitened faces or yellowed faces as a problem per se, which seems to be what you are saying is a problem. Forgive me if I have misunderstood that.

Why isn't learning a country's dance traditions showing respect in the same way as learning its language? When I worked in Thailand, I was asked to teach some children Scottish dance and I was taught some Thai dance. I thought that was a very good way of showing respect both ways. If I'd been any good at Thai dance I might well have showed off my prowess in Britain while dressed and made up to look as much like a Thai woman as possible. What, I ask again, is wrong with that?

If someone who is not Chinese but who is playing or performing a Chinese character/personality what would be intrinsically wrong about making the non-Chinese person look as Chinese as possible?

I do understand that excessive caricatures or stereotypes (and I mean excessive because some if not most stereotypes are actually useful; I have a vague recollection of posting an article about that not so long ago) can be seen as offensive, but as far as I could see from the video tegan posted, there was nothing of that nature in the dance in question.

Thank you Elegran for accepting my aopology.

The only reason I continued the conversation and repeated again- is that thatbags, although agreeing an explanation would be appropriate- still goes on there is no issue and that it is all silly- again in her last post. And the examples given- like learning a foreign language, are just as said, silly and perhaps disingenious and provocative. Learning someone's language is a form of respect. Imagine that painting faces and making grimaces with slitty eyes was an old tradition in some parts of UK- wouldit be OK to repeat in a public show because it was not meant to represent the Chinese. Prince Phillip comes to mind.

If there is no issue at all, why would it be a good idea to explain at all?

I will leave it at that and withdraw- whatever the provocation.

Traditionally, Geishas painted their faces white. European travellers, when they were eventually accepted into Japan, could have assumed that it was a reference to the white faces of the "foreign devils", and taken it as an insult, (or perhaps a compliment), but the origin went back way before that to when a white face was a rarity. As it was in the heyday of Morris dancing.

It wasn't emulating European skin, or even totally the influence of the Chinese preference for fragile "porcelain" skin (which was itself nothing to do with wanting to ape the foreign devils). It was largely because geishas were entertainers in rooms lit only by candles, and their white makeup stood out in the dim light.
See jpninfo.com/28311

And, pen, even IF the face-blacking in question is 'about' black people (in the sense of saying this sort of dance originated in Africa, which I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it's possible, obviously) what is there to get upset about? It's not in a way that is unpleasant or in any way derogatory.

What would people say to a group of Britons, having spent months or years learning about and practising, say, Maori dances, or Thai dances, or whatever, who then dressed up in the kind of way Maoris or Thais or whatevers did when dancing, and performed the dances for the entertainment of other random Britons? Would it be wrong? I don't think it would be any wronger than learning a foreign language and speaking it.

I did try Thai dancing. It's bloody difficult. Also Spanish. Ditto re difficulty. Also Scottish. I was good at that. I'm not Scottish.

All very silly, as I said.

Apologies if you did not mean it, granjura Putting on a slant that is not there was not intended, and I am sure you didn't intend your post to be read that the provision of information had not been endorsed.

Your question about giving an explanation was covered in the thread earlier, gj. Very much earlier, if I remember rightly, by the OP. I think explanations of why things, such as Morris dancers' face-blacking, are done is a very good idea. Which I have also said up thread.

pen, I am not sure the Morris dancer face-blacking has anything to do with black people. See the OP's explanations up thread about that too.

Who's taking my name in vane and to what end? What am I supposed to have said that is being quoted? I thought I had said my piece and put my contributions to this thread to bed!

you are choosing to put a slant on my comments which is definitely not intended- but it is of course your prerogative. How it can be read as 'scolding' is beyond me.

Another point entirely. granjura,if there was an issue, why has no black person complained? At all? Ever?

^ what would be wrong in giving an explanation - would that really upset you or anyone?^ in an unnecessarily critical tone - though it may be that I am inferring a tone that I associate with your posts, granjura. You do tend to scold those you disapprove of.

scold? where?

Quoting greyduster ?!?

The answer to the question in your post ( All I am saying is what would be wrong in giving an explanation - would that really upset you or anyone? ) is ?_

"All I am replying is - Really, no-one even came close to being upset about giving an explanation, and the question implies that you think they did. You were wrong."

I thought what thatbags was saying is that no-one should get into a fankle about it, not that no-one should explain why it is done. Scolding her doesn't seem relevant.

No no-one has said that it would be a bad idea- but some are still going on about the fact there is no issue and therefore nothing needs to be done.

We are indeed going around in circles.

Threads do go round and round the same grooves, don't they?

I thought it was just me, Ana I have been in the cellar rationalising the workshop.

As I pointed out yesterday, Elegran, but my post seemed to fall on deaf ears...

gj Did anyone say it would upset them if an explanation were given? I got the impression that everyone was in favour of that. Maybe I missed a post saying it was a bad idea.

Agreed Penstemmon. How do you know Thatbags that no-one else minded a jot? Agreed the white person over-reacted and was a bit of a busy body- but perhaps she has black friends and relatives who were upset in the past by similar events- and who felt they couldn't complain themselves or were rebuffed.

All I am saying is what would be wrong in giving an explanation - would that really upset you or anyone?

With so much of our family having grown up with apartheid- and learnt to put up and shut up- I am glad some white SAfricans took their side. The end of apartheid was VERY recent indeed- and feelings still very raw.

I suppose my answer to that thatbags is it is not a problem in itself..it all depends on the thinking and reasons behind it, how it is done and if it is respectful or disparaging. Many black people have been hurt and offended by the way the white community have represented them. I think it is a good thing to be mindful of that, that's all. I suggested soot as a way of covering a face as it is less likely to be misunderstood.
I love seeing morris dancing.. we have several groups locally and a few weeks ago it was a big local anniversary for them and there were about 8 groups dancing in town. Not one had a blacked up face but some dancers were black.

Aboriginal mum posts daughter's 'whiteface' photos

I'm sure one can, pen, but why shouldn't one black up? It's dressing up. Why the fuss?

And it still boils down to one white person objecting while no-one else showed any sign of minding one jot.

The whole thing is silly.

Suzied, Lillydully

Why are you saying it is not 'tradition'?

I agree suzied.