Looks like it could soon be 'RIP the NHS'?

I don't think you can look at the NHS in isolation without taking into account what has been happening in our society over the last few years, for which our government is responsible. We live in a rich country but there is a huge and growing disparity between the richest and poorest, which in turn causes serious health inequalities. An increasingly elderly population means increased health spending but additionally social and economic disadvantages lead to poor health. These health inequalities are well documented and treating illnesses associated with such health inequalities costs an estimated 5.5 billion a year (N.I.C.E). I don't believe the government has any intention of addressing these problems but will continue as usual with short term fixes, with a long term goal of persuading us that some sort of private insurance is the only way to go.

I do want us to be no.1. Cancer survival rates are poor compared to Europe.
We fare badly regarding heart attacks compared to France as well[though that could be more to do with diet]

I suspect the 2.25% is not referring to top-up insurance, but to treatment in private clinics. Not the same thing at all.

Yes but private insurance is a choice in the UK. You can choose not to have top-up insurance here but then you have to pay 30% yourself. Hospital treatment, physio, xrays and tests etc. The NI equivalent is very high for employers as well. The top-up insurance doesn't buy private treatment, just 30% of the ordinary provision.

King's Fund comparison shows that the French pay 2.25% privately into the health service; we pay 1.5%. So within that 2.5% difference, only some of it is in private finance, not all.
The French still pay more than we do excluding the insurance.

Also, when this government came in, there were only 5% of trusts in deficit; now there are nearly 65%. Shows there is something wrong with the funding there.

Also in France (almost) everyone has a top-up insurance to pay 30% of the cost. This costs us about 150€ a month. The cost rises with age but the companies cannot take pre-existing conditions into account. Treatment for serious illnesses like cancer and heart attack is funded at 100%.

Not forgetting that the new reorganisation into STPs is predicated on saving another £22 billion.

Is the the third or fourth topdown reorganisation that was never going to happen under a Tory government?

Exactly, daphne. If obie wants us to be number one, perhaps our government should spend as much on the health service as the French one does.

Yes, I know it does. It also spends a great deal more on healthcare.

Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare - UK 8.46%/France 10.95%
Current expenditure per capita - UK $3235/France $4124
Number of physicians per 1000 - UK 2.8/France 3.3
Number of hospital beds per 1000 - UK 2.8/France 6.3

www.nhsconfed.org/resources/key-statistics-on-the-nhs

I think the statistics speak for themselves. France spends more and has a better service.

Katrina Percy's resignation at Southern Health has nothing to do with wasting money.

Whether it does or it doesnt, it highlights waste

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3768135/Smug-shameless-240k-health-boss-sums-s-wrong-NHS-writes-IAN-BIRRELL.html

France has a different system. Voted no 1 and best in the world.

@obieone

Katrina Percy's resignation at Southern Health has nothing to do with wasting money.

It's highly unlikely that any of us can influence the way the NHS is funded at national level in the short term. It seems to me that the only influence we can have is at local level.

I've belonged to a local group for some time and it's become clear to me that finding out who makes decisions and when they are made is a huge problem. Everybody passes the buck. If people think that there is waste, getting involved locally should be a good opportunity to make your voice heard and suggest alternatives.

The 2012 Health and Social Care Act fragmented the system and now it's been decided that fragmentation wasn't good and that Clinical Commissioning Groups need to work together - hence STPs. The STPs are supposed to listen to stakeholders (eg patients), but there seems to be no way of getting your voice heard. I'm meeting somebody on Saturday, who might have some contacts, who know their way around the system. Fingers crossed!

Niggly, which would you rather pay for, the NHS, Hinkley Point, HS2 or Trident?
Personally, I'd rather my taxes went on the NHS, as you've obviously realised by now.

@niggly

I'm sure there is waste, but where do you think it is?

Germany and France spend about 50% more on healthcare than the UK. Do you think they waste money too?

The fact is that the NHS is underfunded for what people want it to do. When it was set up after the war, life expectancy was much lower and we didn't have the drugs to keep people alive for so long. Stays in hospital are much shorter than they were, so the NHS is more efficient.

£3.2 billion is spent on commissioning, the internal market which was introduced by the coalition government. Millions is also spent on collecting and analysing targets. The Kings Fund has repeatedly said that management costs (apart from the above) are low.

I agree with you obieone, A lot of money is wasted in the NHS, but not many people will admit to this.
A lot of people are in favour of Trident contrary to popular belief, and HS2, but wisely keep their thoughts to themselves particularly on here!!! Hinkley Point is controversial, the involvement of China has made it so.

' “This idea turns up like a bad penny with monotonous regularity. When the government proposes an expensive project disliked by large sections of the public, such as Trident, HS2 or Hinkley Point, they emphasise its economic value. No mention of 1p taxes or increased NI. But the far more efficient boost to the economy that comes from the NHS, estimated to be £4 for every £1 spent, is routinely ignored.

The National Health Action Party will continue to oppose this most socially regressive idea, which hits workers who rely on wages hardest. It harms lower earners disproportionately because the level of salary on which workers have to pay National Insurance is capped by the Upper Earnings Limit (UEL), so very high earners do not pay contributions on their full salaries.

It's yet another way to transfer the costs of universal healthcare from the wealthiest in society to the poorest, even though everyone benefits from it.

There was also a Conservative commitment on tax specifically that there would be no rise in income tax rates, VAT or national insurance before 2020. That's one pledge that could be applied to the NHS, unlike Jeremy Hunt's unworkable and dangerous '24/7 NHS'.

The government should be addressing the problem of tax avoidance. Even if HMRC collected only portion of this money, it would be more than enough to fund the NHS and to properly fund Social Care with a cap on costs to the individual. '

From the NHA. Looks like they agree with you, daphne.

I dont expect praise for this comment!

I agree with people upthread about bloated NHS management who are often not that competent.
Southern Trust being yet another example.

Perhaps we ought to fund the NHS through the lottery. It worked in Rio. Something needs to be done to rationalise spending and funding.

Wouldn't hold your breath

An increase in NI hits people of working age, who work for an employer, disproportionately. I have been arguing all along that taxes should be increased for those with wealth (as opposed to income). This includes wealthier pensioners and those who don't pay income tax eg. BTL landlords. Wealth in the UK is relatively undertaxed.

I would like to see pension contributions tax relief given at basic rate only and, of course, I would like to see the government making more of an effort to close tax loopholes, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't have a crystal ball any more than anybody else, but I suspect that in twenty years time, the UK will make much of its money from being a tax haven.

It's an absolute disgrace that one of the wealthiest countries in the world claims not to be able to afford basic needs such as healthcare and housing for its citizens.

I can't see anything changing until an effective opposition gets its act together.

The NHA take on an increase in NI to pay for the NHS.
Strangely, it's exactly what I think.

nhap.org/no-to-an-increase-in-ni-contributions-to-fund-the-nhs/

More strikes next month.
I wonder what the new PM will do. She has no previous form on the NHS, I don't think.

Daphne, I hope the Apple case gets sorted while we are still part of the EU, before article 50 gets brought into the equation.

Have you seen this, daphne?
While we've all been busy fighting off TTIP, big business has been sorting out this with governments.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-trade-deal-new-what-is-tisa-privatisation-pact-secret-threat-to-democracy-a7216296.html

Anyone who voted Brexit to gain sovereignty needs to read this.

I just get sick of it all.