Ban on surgery for patients who are overweight or who smoke?

Free at the point of use available to everyone who needed it - Nye Bevan

JessM I was going off evidence from a series of TV shows several years ago called, 'Supersizers go (a particular period in history)' starring Giles Coren and Sue Perkins. They followed the way of life of that period for a week, having every possible health check both before and after. Even in the 60s, their health stats all improved and they lost weight because their lifestyle was healthier. Neither of them smoked so I didn't count smoking, which anyway, is a lifestyle choice people still make today. Add in our sedentary lifestyle, poor food choices etc. and we may live longer but obesity and type 2 diabetes are increasing alarmingly.

Here's a link:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7048763.stm

Stupid comment really!

And here's another:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/23/truth-about-obesity-10-shocking-things-need-to-know

Supersizers,bariatric obese etc just means overweight and fat. Give a medical name and it gives people a 'legitimate' reason to make an excuse for over indulging ! When are we all going to be honest about this issue?

Well reasoned post Stella .

Supersizers was just the name of a TV programme, Ruth. It wasn't commenting on obesity or weight issues. It was meant to be lighthearted and funny but some interesting facts came out too.

Agreed lizzypopbottle re diabetes.

So shall we refuse to treat alcoholics,cyclists,car accident victims who were at fault, ski ers motorbikes if the cache the was their fault,rugby players,football players boxers,walkers who fall over,diyers who have accidents.The list is endless.there is an element of judgement herepeople get fat,smoke and do other self harm things because they are unhappy or it's a coping mechanism.we need to stop judging people.we can all make poor choices....

This is nothing to do with 'fault'. Doctors aren't introducing the idea of 'blame' or 'judging' - people on this thread are. It's no wonder that people are becoming defensive.

I agree with you, Caroline, that overeating is a form of self-harm, because people are unhappy and aren't motivated by the concept of delayed gratification.

It's ironic really that people label fat people as lacking willpower, gluttonous and with all sorts of other negative, 'naughty but nice' is an advertising slogan.

Well said, dd. I was just thinking how quickly the comments from many posters have polarised. The principle that it might be better, on financial grounds, to treat the person who will most benefit from a procedure, if there is a limited supply of funding, is not totally unreasonable. And that was the point at issue, not desert on moral grounds.

It is desert on medical grounds only that is being mooted.

Eloethan - I knew you would respond and in the tone you indeed have. Deny children and the disabled ?? Of course not. I was pretty clear who I think should pay and stand by my views. Oh yes, and I voted Leave.

Who did you mean by "and those who have not paid a penny into the system"? There are very few adults in the UK who have never paid a penny in tax of some sort.

I thought this was happening anyway.

We know someone who could not have a knee operation for nearly three years because she was deemed 'overweight'. She had difficulty losing any weight because her painful knees made her practically immobile.
We know someone else who was told to stop smoking and drinking before the surgeon would operate even thought the surgery could have been considered an urgent priority.

Rationing occurs.
Old people are disposed of in one way or another.

Don't believe it doesn't happen or that it is something new.

How many have talked with a person eho is obese, and I do not mean a chat at the bus stop. When you hear a human being say - I have no one cares if I jumped in the river, no family, I don't want to be fat like this but when I feel so alone , I think of the food I am going to eat so don't think how unloved I am , if only for a short time it takes the pain away .

Would you say, you need more self control , make better life choices , your fat because you are a glutton

I've just looked up my CCG's policy on hip replacements.

It states that the following should be tried before surgery:

'NSAIDs, paracetamol, aspirin or narcotics analgesics at regular
doses during 6 months with no pain relief; weight control management if overweight, physical therapies done.'

BUT

'Advanced age and obesity (BMI 30-39.9) are not a contra-indication to surgery.'

There's a footnote about smoking:

'Patients should be aware that their smoking status may need to be determined if they are being referred to secondary care for treatment. The CCG recommends that patients are non-smoking for a minimum period of 8 weeks prior to any surgical operation taking place, especially if under general anaesthetic. Patients should be made aware that there is strong evidence that smokers are more likely to have lung, heart and infectious complications and remain in hospital longer after their operation. Support is available through the Health Promotion Team to help patients who wish to stop smoking.'

Obesity and smoking aren't an automatic bar to surgery, but doctors wouldn't be doing their job, if they didn't warn people of the dangers. It looks as though the health authority in the OP is going a step further.

Can we remember that this news story results from the NHS running out of money so they have to delay or refuse some operations. Cataracts, knees, hips even for the thin and non smoking will be deferred. So refusing the obese smoker is just part of that process, on the basis that they are the authors of their own misfortune. Why stop there? Here are some categories on which we could save money. All cosmetic surgery other than repairing damage caused by other people. All fertility treatment. All regendering treatment. All contraceptive prescriptions unless the mother's health would be endangered by pregnancy. All sports injuries. All injuries to a driver of a car at fault in an accident. All burns caused by putting petrol on a barbecue. Etc etc. Please be clear that I am NOT in favour of cutting treatment to these categories of people, but honing in on smokers and the obese [whch today means mildly overweight] is thoroughly unfair and a nasty way of dressing up a financial policy as though it is based on medical necessity.

At the end of the day we in the west have to much of everything, a free health service, education etc. and an easy life compared to so many in the world. Enough said, will bite my tongue before I upset. A whole load of people

Re - why should the food industry be reined in?
There are several examples of products that are known to harm human health. They are dealt with very differently under the law
1. drugs such as cannabis, heroin etc are classified as illegal. The effect of this is that no tax is collected and the trade is not in the hands of registered companies.
2. cigarettes and tobacco are heavily regulated and heavily taxed. They are controlled by law - not allowed to advertise, not even indirectly via sports sponsorship, not allowed to be sold to young people , sold by licensed shops
3. alcohol - heavily regulated and heavily taxed and controlled by law re sales to young people and only sold by licensed companies
4. sugary foods - taxed the same as other foods, (paltry sugary drinks tax levy on it's way) advertised freely and can be sold to children by any shop. Can be added to almost any prepared food without making it clear. (beans, tinned soup, pulled pork, sweet cure bacon etc)
When governments in the past realised how harmful tobacco was they moved to control its consumption and publicised the dangers. The result was a steep fall in smoking and consequently a steep drop in smoking related illness. This despite extremely heavy lobbying from the tobacco industry. So now that we have realised the damage being done by heavy consumption of sweet drinks, confectionery, cakes, biscuits etc why not do something about it? A few pence on a sugary drink is just a token gesture.

Hattiehelga My tone matches your tone. You said "all the Health Tourists and those who have not paid a penny into the system but get preferential treatment for free". Who are the people who don't pay a penny but get preferential free treatment, other than "health tourists" and what has voting to Leave got to do with it?

It hadn't occurred to me but, as daphnedill said, just about everybody pays some sort of tax. VAT is 20% on everything but the most essential things.

@ab

You're right.

About two thirds of over 60s are overweight and between a quarter and a third of 60-70 year olds are obese, so the chances are that many GNers fall into one of those categories.

I've mentioned before that I've suffered from chronic depression most of my adult life, although it's relatively well controlled. I'm one of the third of over 60s who isn't overweight - at the moment. However, every so often I have an acute depressive episode, when nothing matters and I don't see that I have a future. When I feel like that, I sometimes don't have the energy to eat anything at all and at others, I could eat everything in the house. I have to be very careful about what I eat and usually I am, but if I have a very black depression, I just don't care.

It is a fact that obesity is correlated with deprivation and depression. It's not unreasonable to assume that people who live in bleak surroundings with little hope of climbing out of them will 'comfort eat' with little regard to health warnings. Unfortunately, it's a 'chicken and egg' situation. People are less likely to think positively of themselves if they are obese, especially when people call them weak-willed gluttons. Less positive people are likely to become depressed, so will do something which gives them pleasure...and so it goes on.

I wish people wouldn't concentrate on the 'moral' (or lack of) aspects of obesity. It's a health issue and people very often need a helping hand, not a slap in the face.

Annie, of course anyone's heart would go out to someone who feels so unloved and unwanted that they overeat to compensate or make themselves feel better.

But not every obese person can give that reason - sometimes a loving couple can both be overweight and not care. It often takes a major health issue to make some people aware of what they're actually doing to themselves.