Brexit4

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/11/company-was-pressured-by-the-government-to-deny-devastating-leaked-brexit-memo-that-talked-of-chaos/

I thought this might be the case. She likes doing things secretly, doesn't she?

Probably not more's the pity! As for Wales! I understood that Wales voted overwhelmingly to leave?!!! Presumably they were all too stupid, ill educated etc etc to know what they were doing so Nanny Cardiff will patronisingly put them right, poor ignorant dolts that they are! Mind you, had the Welsh voted remain, no doubt their credibility wouldn't be in question!!!!
Why we had that referendum is beyond me if only one answer was going to be accepted, why ask when it's a foregone conclusion?! All that money, upset and commotion, what on earth for? Why don't Scotland and Wales sort it out and the rest of us just fall into line?! No wonder we've got Donald Trump when so called respected politicians are so devious and arrogant, so full of their own p and importance. I guess career prospects and of course massive future salaries are at the bottom of it! As DS says theyre just a shower of crooks with very few exceptions who certainly do not care about democracy and even less about ordinary people, the poor or disaffected, only their careers and bank balances matter in their cossetted playground world.

Philip Collins has proposed that TMay go for a transitional deal:

How May can break free from Brexit muddle

November 17 2016, 12:00pm, The Times

Philip Collins

Rather than rushing through a bad agreement the PM needs to seal a transitional deal to take us past the next election

In the three-dimensional game of chess beyond the looking glass the White Queen believes six impossible things before Brexit. Her foreign secretary is impossible with the Italians about trade in prosecco and fish and chips, uses a rude word to the Czechs while being impossible about the movement of people, and is upbraided by the Dutch finance minister for talking impossible nonsense about a customs union.

Meanwhile, the prime minister insists she has a plan for the country’s departure from the European Union but refuses to say what it entails. Mrs May has already had to listen, at PMQs, to a Tory MP ask if his Italian parents will be permitted to stay. This is never going to last. There are just too many impossible things here.

It is not unreasonable for the prime minister to wish to keep her detailed thoughts secret. A comprehensive wishlist would be an open invitation to critics to denounce its contents and deplore what was missing. It would inevitably, thanks to the trading nature of negotiating, ensure that some of the wishes were denied. The published list would therefore have to include dummy options that the prime minister was secretly prepared to lose. Then she would be denounced, either for dishonesty or for not bringing home the bounty promised.

None of this makes silence a virtue. Representatives of the government had a hissy fit about the Deloitte report leaked to The Times this week but its contents brought a truth into the public realm: Britain’s process for leaving the EU is a shambles, or “Mickey Mouse land” in Kenneth Clarke’s phrase. The most complex task of postwar British politics — at least 500 separate projects — is going to require more civil servants than are employed across the EU. The official forecast for next week’s autumn statement will set the bill for Brexit at £100 billion over the next five years. The chancellor hopes to hand out goodies for those who are just about managing — the “jams” — but, as the White Queen knows too well, it is going to be “jam to-morrow and jam yesterday but never jam to-day”.

There is an inescapable sense of nobody taking back control. This is no great surprise, really. The Leave campaign was recklessly cavalier about how easy leaving the EU was going to be. Disentangling Britain from a series of legal treaties is not one event but many. The EU has about 50 international trade agreements from which the UK benefits, all of which will now have to be begun again. It will be a mammoth task even to replicate these arrangements, let alone improve on them. Maybe one day Liam Fox will return triumphant from Bosnia-Herzegovina with a new deal. Next stop Costa Rica, Mauritius the week after.

Mrs May needs to make us think she has a plan and the best way to convince us is to have one
Dr Fox cannot even start until Britain’s relationship with the EU is settled. The laws that frame the markets for financial services, employment, restructuring and insolvency, data protection and intellectual property have all been painstakingly drafted in chambers of the EU. Pension law, competition, telecommunications and media are almost as complicated. There are some bills, such as the Equalities Act, in which some provisions refer to the EU and some do not. That’s not to mention clauses whose parentage and application is a matter of legal dispute. Somebody is going to have to go through all of it and say yes or no to every clause. Every change will be the subject of well-informed corporate and charity lobbying.

It is going to be fabulously complicated. If the referendum question had only been “can you really be bothered?” we would have voted to remain. This negotiation can only be done badly in two years and it probably cannot be done at all. “Divide a loaf by a knife: what’s the answer to that?” asks the White Queen. On the current trajectory it is likely that Britain will crash-land out of the EU in 2019 with no completed deal. It’s hard to put a figure on how bad that will be but make mine a large one. A crash landing is in nobody’s interests, least of all the prime minister’s. It is bad enough that she is inviting the charge of drift that could easily stick. Drift could soon come to define the government and its leader.

It’s even worse, though, to drift towards a cliff-edge. Mrs May needs to make us think she has a plan and the best way to convince us is to have one. The best answer is therefore to accept that half a loaf is better than none.

Mrs May should signal now that Britain will seek a transitional deal, prior to the comprehensive terms on which departure from the EU will be sought. It is entirely possible that Britain could successfully apply to the European Economic Area (EEA), which is an agreement to secure the free movement of goods, services, capital and people between Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and the 28 member states of the EU. This would permit us to opt out of those EU laws, such as fisheries policy, which we found burdensome. We would have bought temporary certainty on commercial and social policy. Crucially, we would also have bought time to do a proper negotiation and Mrs May would have the scope to play poker her own quiet way.

This does present trouble politically, though. First, there is the minor problem of explaining to Dr Fox what most people have realised already, which is that his department is defunct. The bigger issue will be explaining that EEA membership includes the free movement of people. The abolition of free movement is the only European topic on which Mrs May has not been inscrutable. There is a risk of being denounced by those zealots who fear a temporary deal will end up being the basis of a permanent settlement. That is still better than landing with a thud in 2019. Mrs May will have to ask the people to take her bona fides on trust. The 2020 general election would then become, in part, a plebiscite on which team is trusted to replace the interim deal with an enduring relationship.

The White Queen has the great advantage of living her life backwards. She is given foresight through the benefit of hindsight. The White Queen screams first and only later pricks her hand on a brooch. Mrs May should be screaming silently to herself right now as she stares into the looking glass. If she wants to avoid the prick she needs a plan she can discuss in public. At the moment she is pulling a fast one which is no cleverer for the fact that she’s doing it so slowly.

niggly, I wouldn't be so sure that Scotland would now be history, given the time it's going to take to untangle Britain from its membership of the EU.

I doubt Scotland would be any easier to 'divorce'!

But the majority didn't want that nigglynellie so their first Minister is not speaking for the majority of the population.

The "No" side won, with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. The turnout of 84.6% was the highest recorded for an election or referendum in the United Kingdom since the introduction of universal suffrage

The turnout for the EU referendum in Scotland was only 62% in comparison, so there was a more luke-warm response to that opportunity to vote.

What a pity Scotland didn't become independent at their referendum. We'd now be shot of the whole lot of them and their opportunistic first minister. If the whole of the UK had had a voice in that episode,(it did affect us all) for certain they'd now be history and good riddance. Who knows, one day!!!!

Well, Wales has 7 UKIP AMs, several Brexit supporting MPs and voted more in favour of Brexit.
But Scotland has a higher population.

Scotland:
There were 1,661,191 for Remain, exactly 62% of the votes cast There were just over a million votes for Leave in Scotland (1,018,332).

Wales:
854,572 (52.5%) voters in Wales chose to leave the EU, compared with 772,347 (47.5%) supporting Remain.

Turnout in Scotland was 67% while in Wales it was 72% and in England 73%

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-fresh-blow-for-theresa-may-as-supreme-court-rules-scotland-and-wales-can-intervene-in-article-a7424796.html

There could well be very right wing governments in Germany and France next year, if there is no softening on the free movement of people! It was a bad idea in the first place.Immigration numbers should always have been decided by the Government of the day, you have a lot, or a little, depending on need.

Merkel is softening/ listening. She has said that the eu has to listen to concerns about immigration, and, she definitely has to listen to the 4 giant car companies in Germany.
She is also aware that Bulgaria is likely to vote in a Russian leaning leader.

That posted before I had finished - I was trying to put a in after come on all of you!!!!
It was intended to be tongue in cheek

Tin hat on now

Come on all of you!
This thread is meandering as they tend to do.

Say not what you think of Jeremy Corbyn, or what you think another poster thinks of Jeremy Corbyn.
Or even what you think that Jeremy Corbyn thinks of you.

The question is - did Jeremy Corbyn vote for Brexit or not?
And what would Jeremy Corbyn be doing under the circumstances in which Theresa May finds herself?

If, indeed, the EU wishes to dictate the terms of Brexit then how can people demand to know what she is going to do about it?

Or do I detect a softening of the attitude of some eg Merkel? after the initial panic and knee-jerk reactions?

think that would make no 1

How about;

When Corbyn got stuck up the chimney
He began to shout
They've lighted a fire for my funereal pyre,
Help Girlies get me out.

youtu.be/8QaFxp9uUKg

you do realise i cannot go in the Con Club untill next spring , my toes have curled up , hell bells - wind beneath my wings and now this . Rock bottom and still drilling I fear

Surely not! You're making it up, you have to be!!

Good grief be back in a min

There is a link on the Worst Christmas Song thread...

anniebach. No, it's true. It's called: JC for PM for me. You'll love it. It's being sung by the corbinisters. Couldn't make it up, could you.
I'm sure there will be some who will download it

Rosesarered, you are joking? Please say you are , please

Oh God. To what dire level is he willing to drag the Labour Party.

At least he has a Christmas Song now to spur him on

I can't remember whether he was in or out!

But Jen, you brought up your admiration for him at PMQ , I just responded to your post