Brexit4

Did you not read that in the Times, bags? Or have I missed your reference to it?

Corbyn actually isn't making trouble over Brexit, but I guess that's because he's a closet brexiteer!

I read the Deloitte statement, dj. I didn't know they'd apparently been pressured about not publishing it, but that doesn't surprise me. Nobody would want someone saying their project was chaos.

Perhaps this is why May has proposed a transitional deal.

The areas of Wales that voted to Remain in Europe have three times the immigration level of those that voted to leave
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/areas-wales-voted-remain-europe-11520178

So, in Wales at least, the main reason for voting Leave was probably not immigration.
They must be intelligent and thoughtful and had carefully considered all the reasons on both sides before deciding!

I'm sure they did. Try telling that to Cardiff!

Cardiff cannot be compared with any other part of Wales , doubt you will find tractors chugging down Queen Street or around the bay and no sheep grazing either

perhaps that's some of the problem ab, town and country being poles apart in more ways than one.

I'm sure I will get slammed for this but after a visit to my retired teacher brother today-still very sore Remain voter -with whom thankfully family love and loyalty supercedes our difference re the referendum something occurred to me.Almost without fail the people DH and I know that voted Remain are either public sector workers, teachers, social workers in the main.Or work for large organisations eg. one friend works for BT.So used to working in large organisations, with the safety net of sick pay, holiday pay ,unions etc.
Amongst our Leave voting friends and relatives are a lot of self employed,small to medium business owners or part of smaller private sector companies.And a larger proportion that have had change direction,or completely restart after either losing a business or redundancy. But that's just our experience and I fully expect to be rubbished for it.
Not sure how significant that is but what I guess what I'm exploring is the idea that who voted and why is very nuanced by many more factors than where they live ,and immigration numbers in that area.Personality and a different mindset, plus so may other things influence the vote .

Washerwoman, I certainly think you have a point here. People who feel they have benefited or do benefit from the EU clearly would see things differently to people who feel it has done absolutely nothing for them, in fact have even been a hindrance such as small businesses, entrepreneurs and people just trying to earn a living as best they can without the benefit of union support, grants from the EU, or of course the umbrella of big organizations. Westminster, Brussels, Cardiff(?!!) are so removed from everyday folk that they simply have no conception of how they work, think or feel, not a clue!

I agree as well.

That's worth thinking about!
I just remember what one poster said about your attitude to risk (I think it was a link to Martin Lewis, the Money Saving Expert).
If you don't like risk vote Remain, if you are relaxed about risk then vote Brexit.
Something like that, anyway.

And, in fact, public sector workers, teachers, civil servants, people who work for large organisations etc are probably less likely to be risk takers than those working for smaller firms, their own small businesses, free lance etc.

Interesting.

The EU is only interested in big business millionaires,people in high places and becoming a super state run from Brussels but cares nothing for the poor, the disaffected or their lives, fears or hopes. Bit unbelievable really!

Well it obviously is to Remainers. Some people have always been more sceptical, or had a better grasp of reality.

So true Niggly, I canvassed through tthe Brexit campaign and yes there were the usual - we can't take more immigrants ,but so many farmers wanted out because of EU restrictions. This doesn't apply to Merthyr but there and other once industrial towns there was despair , a what have we got to lose feeling . Some did believe Boris and his bus slogan and some were going to vote out because Cameron was campaigning in.

I don't think there was one thing that we could say caused so many voting out and UKIP played quite a large part

Despair like the rust belts in the mid west of America. Donald Trump has tapped into all this (like UKIP) plus the usual fears and phobias and so on real and imaginary, some racist, homophobic and everything else, and they poor souls think he'll hear and help them! Of course he won't, but why couldn't the democrats realise these folk exist and whatever they are like try and acknowledge them, engage with them, listen to them however objectionable instead of labelling them, and perhaps offer them something, (hope?!)and mean it!!

I had two small businesses. I voted to remain.

When was that though? We're talking about now.

And you have personal family reasons for voting to remain, as you've already told us.

Sold the last one in 2010 when I retired. Personal reasons or not, you have all been saying that small business owners voted Brexit. I am just showing you that not all of us did.

Talking about big business millionnaires, Trump has just agreed to pay out £25 million to people who were going to take him to court for fraud. He speaks for the little people, does he?

Niggly again we agree after the referendum I said we should listen to those who are so against immigrants , needless to say I annoyed some

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/11/british-businesses-have-abandoned-65-billion-of-investment-since-brexit-vote-survey-finds/

This hasn't been widely discussed. Original behind a Times paywall. £65 billion is half the annual NHS, to put it into perspective.

Hello DJ -to clarify I wasn't talking about Trump and the US ?Was referring to our referendum. And I said a lot were self employed and small to medium business owner- not all.It was an observation from our experience -not a criticism.

Washerwoman, do you have any idea why the small business owners voted Leave? The very few Leave voters I know mostly did it for the 'take back control, didn't like rule by unelected bureaucrats etc'. reasons. Mostly retired older people.
It would be interesting to know why small business owners appear to think leaving the EU would benefit them. Or did their distaste for the EU override any other considerations?

White Wave the best way to explain it as a small business owner is that I have full control of the finances.My business grew faster than I expected,largely due to word of mouth it has to be said.And I worked flat out for 10 years,finally able to take weekends off but I am no where near retired,and have no desire to be.I consider myself middle aged rather than old.DH- in the business with me now- and WE decide where and how the money spent on the business ,and the money it generates goes.How much work we take on,which customers are valuable and which quite frankly are more hassle than they are worth.Before you jump all over me some people expect something for nothing and are out to complain.Fact.And many times we have gone over and beyond our remit ,being helpful for no extra gain.Probably why we get so many lovely testimonials.
I started small,was positive ,optimistic and I grew.In many more ways than just the business.In a way the business grew organically.It has to be said my Remoaner brother ( ouch sorry but he is Mr Negative generally) very much poo pooed my business idea at the outset.But I still love him !On a much larger scale listening to Philip Redmond on BBCs Front Row a while back talking about Liverpool's regeneration through the Capital of Culture.A miniscule amount came from the EU.The success and subsequent money brought into the city was down to the people of Liverpool getting wholeheartedly behind the project,and as he put it 'grew organically'.Michael Grade-former BBC director - writes in the Telegraph why he voted Leave and the fantastic opportunties to expand our already world leading creative industries.I've seen plenty of other letters,from leading oncologists,academics,enterepeneurs to name a few over the last few months and not just in my regular paper.I try to read around widely.
I would no more hand over control of my business finances,nor household budget, to 27 other individuals and then ask for portions back in separate lumps to eg.service our vans,pay our insurance,accountant etc.A small amount of our profits are donated to a charity relevant to our business.Our choice.And simply by being the best I can be I can generate ample business without doing a deal that ties me in to customers where they can then dictate the terms and conditions wether I like them or not.I know younger people withave a similar mindset who voted Leave.My 94 year old mum voted Remain because better the devil you know and she doesn't like change.But I am in no way denigrating her vote or oppinions. Nor public sector employees ,as a former NHS employee myself.I do try to see other points of view.
WW It's quite telling when you say the' very few Leave voters you know.'Another regular poster on here said she's only ever met two people who voted Leave.Fortunately round here people are generally pretty open and I know plenty of people who voted differently to me.Indeed out of all our friends,family,customers I would say pretty much tallies with the national voting trend.It opens your mind to ideas outside the newspapers talking to real people I find.Have I had doubts about my vote.No.Would I vote differently. No.Will I be bitter if Brexit doesn't go ahead.No,just very disappointed because I feel it offers a world of opportunity.Do I expect it to be easy.No.Never did.Nothing worthwhile happens overnight and I happen to believe it is worthwhile exiting the EU longterm. But that's my view and I know a lot of you don't share it.
Off to enjoy my weekend off now. Still something of a novelty .!

Well said washerwoman I noticed even before the vote that it was people who had taken big/small risks in their lives and had not had the support of big institutions and companies and unions who wanted to leave.
What did Napoleon say: we are a nation of little shop keepers? Yes we are, but look what we've given to the world.