Theresa May 3

Sorry, Mair. Surprisingly it was POGS, not you who brought up the immigration point.

Maybe Maizie but migrants are mobile (thats why theyre called 'migrants'). They can apply for the job from Kracow or Peterborough, Constanza or Slough, and move to Barnsley if theyre offered it.

Employers are fishing in a very big pond with many hungry fish.

I do hope the 3million take notice of the strike day next month and show people like Mair how much work they do here.
There are not 3 million unemployed according to latest figures, so British workers cannot fill the gap.

Ah. So it's not floods of Eastern Europeans pouring into the UK in search of jobs, then? It's employers bringing them in...

Do get a grip Mair - nightmares? Moi? I think you are getting confused.
Also I was talking about the headlines. I don't have time to consume 24 hour non stop news.
Just what you'd expect Mazie because the vast majority of immigrants go where there are jobs. (the SE and the horticultural areas, in the main) Why would they move somewhere where there are so few opportunities.
I spoke to hundreds of people on the street during the remain campaign and EU immigrants very thin on ground indeed. Half a dozen maybe who were working as chefs etc. In our nearby town I know of 2 EU immigrant run businesses. And all credit to them turning up here, starting a business and creating jobs.

I would imagine that in the last five years, immigration from EU countries would have
Gone up quite a lot actually, including in Barnsley.

Maizied

Yes I did as you say bring up 'the immigration point'.

I said this, " Not sure your link is that advisable as immigration is blamed by some in the link you provided for loss of employment and I don't think that was remotely an intention of yours."

Might I point out however I 'mentioned' immigration but it was in response to your link to Buzzfeed that brought up the subject of immigration in the article related to Barnsley in the first place!.

This is from YOUR link:-

'This feeling of abandonment by Westminster is prevalent in the town, where 70% voted to leave the EU. People say they resent competing for jobs with European migrants willing to work all hours for the lowest wages.'

----
' Wood, 67, is a retired farmer who lives on the outskirts of Barnsley. Sinking an ale in the Old No.7 pub he says: “What destroyed Barnsley is it lost its industry and then immigrants came and now there’s even fewer jobs.
“There’s only so many jobs – you need to get rid of unemployment first. We’ve got one of the highest rates of unemployment and then you bring immigrants in and the locals can’t get the job. Or if they do, they’ll be getting a job on a low wage.”'
--

'Marin, 28, came to Barnsley from Romania last September. A lot of those who voted to leave Europe would see migrant workers like him as part of the problem. He can’t understand why people complain about wages here.'
--

I am not a poster that says much on the immigration subject but I have been vocal on GN over the European Union 'POSTED WORKERS DIRECTIVE' This has been a disaster for the UK workers and has caused problems of lowering wages and availability of jobs for our work force. This is a description of the POSTED WOKERS DIRECTIVE which puts it in a nut shell.

A "posted worker" is an employee who is sent by his employer to carry out a service in another EU Member State on a temporary basis. ... Posted workers are different from EU mobile workers in that they remain in the host Member State temporarily and do not integrate in its labour market.

In other words a company in the UK, perhaps a warehouse or factory, has employees from say Romania but they do not have to comply with conditions the UK worker expects as they are still employed in Romania, not the UK.

I believe the EU were going to make amendments to the POSTED WORKERS DIRECTIVE to benefit those on the PWD to fall in line with the pay and conditions of the 'host country' but I haven't the time to look it up at the moment.

Do not confuse my words with an anti immigrant stance!!!! I speak as I find and sometimes the point is fairly made that not all immigration is good for the UK, neither is it all bad. Common Sense seems to be lost when some either want 'NO' immigration at all but equally common sense is lost when some want an 'OPEN TO ALL' immigration policy.

We need immigration but if we have unemployed capable of doing the job then why are they languishing on benefits , if as they say they want to work?

Might I add the UK minimum wage is paid north to south but try buying or renting a house in Barnsley compared to buying or renting in Bath, Oxford, Brighton, Barnsley is a hell of a lot cheaper to live in. I am certainly not saying life is easy nor am I saying life is good for everyone, it never has been nor probably ever will be. I am just trying to be pragmatic, although no doubt I will 'again' be admonished by somebody, it's par for the course these days.

I doubt it, roses. I'm sure numbers will have risen but not by 'quite a lot' as there are very few jobs in Barnsley. It's been depressed ever since the loss of the mining industry.

I live in an 'area of high deprivation'in the NE. Yes, there has been a noticeable influx of Eastern European immigrants in the last few years, but a trickle, not a flood.

Excellent post Pogs the posted workers directive is something that Labour hate as well, and quite rightly so.

Thanks for your explanation, POGS.

I posted the piece, with a link to the entire article, in good faith and because I was using it to illustrate a different point about creation of jobs outside London.

I honestly suspect that the comment about immigrants taking jobs in Barnsley is one born of perception rather than reality. Immigrant numbers have been low in Barnsley and are likely to remain so as immigrants tend to go to where jobs are available. Which there aren't in Barnsley (and probably not in most of South Yorkshire).

The Posted Workers Directive is interesting. Does it really apply to employers who deliberately advertise low paid jobs in Eastern European countries and not in the UK? I would have thought that it had been intended for companies which had operations in a number of EU countries to make it easier for them to move their staff around. But, you've studied it more than I have...

We need immigration but if we have unemployed capable of doing the job then why are they languishing on benefits , if as they say they want to work?

I think, in this case, it's because a) there are very few jobs available anyway and b) employers are entitled to employ whoever they think fit to do the job, regardless of their nationality.

I honestly suspect that the comment about immigrants taking jobs in Barnsley is one born of perception rather than reality. Immigrant numbers have been low in Barnsley and are likely to remain so as immigrants tend to go to where jobs are available.

No you are wrong. Because it is still largely 'white' does not mean its not much affected by immigration and it's rising:

Barnsley has the smallest population of the four major urban areas in SouthYorkshire. Barnsley’s most numerous BME group is White Polish, and there increasing representation from other East Europe accession states

In contrast to all other areas of South Yorkshire, Barnsley has been settled in very low numbers by the Asian: British Pakistani group. The Black British African group is more numerous, but this is not confined to any particular area of the town.

And remember this was based on 2011 figures, and censuses are always undercounts espcially of minority ethnics.

The colonisation patterns of Poles and other A8s have been very
different from immigrants 'of colour'. They have been far more inclined to go to rural areas, post industrial and other areas of relatively high unemployment, competing with locals for the few jobs there are and also taking those jobs which are seasonal, temporary, anti social hours (in hospitality for example) which locals are not very keen to fill, and where employers choices may previously have been limited. A hotelier would sooner have a pretty young Magda or agile fit Pavel than middle aged size 20 Mrs Body to pull pints or wait tables. Many Poles and Eastern Europeans are racist and do not want to live in areas of cities colonised by Africans and Asians, and they are not earning enough to live in the expensive parts which are still majority native British, so they prefer to go somewhere away from the bright lights where housing is much cheaper.

Link:
www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/The%20diverse%20population%20of%20South%20Yorkshire%20Oct%202014.pdf

Hope you saw Dispatches last night and saw how textile workers are being treated in Leicester.
Paid £3 or £3.50 an hour for making clothes for River Island, New Look, Boohoo and Missguided. Absolutely illegal, and a followup to a similar programme six years ago.
Exploitation hasn't changed.

And this kind of exploitation is made far far easier by a flood of workers coming into the country DJ, worse still by illegal immigrants whose situation is even more exploitable. Lefties like yourself are truly wearing blinkers when it comes to the negative impacts of mass immigration.

Wow! Is there any thread which can't be twisted to an anti-immigrant view?

Goodness me, Mair! Anybody would think you're anti-immigrant zealot!

Do they have some malign influence over the weather?

Censuses are always undercounts?
They're the nearest thing we will ever get to accurate figures.

What more accurate data do you have, Mair, to prove your point?

Immigration is a part of all discussion about Brexit DD, much as EU 'zealots' would prefer to suppress it!.

Do try to understand the difference between being 'anti- immigrant' and 'anti mass immigration'! Its not hard.

POGS
Interesting post about Posted workers. I was not aware of the different treatment of these workers, or indeed their existence as a classification. I wonder if we in Britain have many of these. I suspect it may be more common on the c0ntinent where daily or weekly commuting across borders is cheap and easy.

Its another example of the convoluted and bizarre situations that arise when 27 nations all at different levels of development are obliged to behave as if they were a single state (almost)!

Flood, Illegal, lefties, blinkers, mass migration, colonisation patterns, immigrants of colour, racist Poles and Eastern Europeans, colonised by Africans and Asians, hungry fish.

This is the language of division and hate, and just from yesterday. Drip, drip drip.

We must reject this language we have a huge task in front of us to build a Brillliant Britain.

Together we stand Divided we fall, and there has never been a more truism in recent years.

Welsh replied
Also thinking about Mair's question to me about a second referendum - as well as the the positive points she suggests - I would need assurance that Human Rights and working conditions etc would still be in place - loss of any of those things would prevent me voting to leave even for the things she talks about. Took years to have many of the improvements the EU put in place.

To my earlier question:

What would you vote if you could actually see into the future and the outcome, after the first few years of adjustment showed that a decade on Britain thriving, immigration much reduced and highly selective , the NHS better financed, educational standards improving, more opportunities for women and older people to work flexibly as employers found themselves unable to access an infinite supply of cheap labour, and the housing shortage reducing?
Would you vote Brexit in these circumstances?

Thank you Welsh for your reply.

However while you might ideally wish to also include being signatories to the ECHR and incorporating EU law on working conditions into our law, are you seriously saying you would not vote Brexit, if all the rest of my vision of a prosperous Britain as outlined were a certain part of the 'crystal ball' vision, while the rest were as uncertain as the future is anyway in/out/or post EU (should it collapse)?

What I am trying to gleam from this is whether the reasons for voting Bremain are actually about economics (although the arguments put forward for doing so are entirely economic ones).

Speculation about the sunny uplands is just that.

Hard work, rejection of division and compromise will deliver.

Speculation about the sunny uplands is just that
As is doomsaying, with the added issue that predicting doom itself is a factor contributing to it. Careless talk hurts the pound.

Some of the more malicious Bremain extremists are actually wishing for Britains economy to smash on the rocks in the hope we will go crawlign back begging to the EU.

Speculation about the sunny uplands is just that.

I clearly remember what it was like in the UK before we entered the EU and for the first few years of membership. It is not a place I want to go back to.

Just as a matter of interest, I came across this earlier today:

Very few of the commodities we produce contribute to a positive trade balance. Which leads one to wonder just how we are going to do out of 'new' deals.

Of course, our biggest money earners are intangibles, financial services, education, research. We know thata lot of the financial sector will move to the EU on 'Brexit' and May is already positively discouraging those huge money earners, overseas students. Research will be diminished by leaving the EU.

So it is not surprising that there is a great deal of scepticism about 'sunny uplands'.

Careless talk hurts the pound.

So, do be careful what you say, Gnetters. There are spies from the financial sector monitoring this board and hanging on our every word. If the pound falls we'll know who to blame...

. More division then. Pound crashes -its those pesky remainers fault, Footsie dives - its those pesky remainers fault, immigration rises its those pesky remainers fault.

Leave behind this language of division, and try to work as a team.