Theresa May 3

Jess said
And remember that computer science/IT is such a big subject these days - not all those studying it are studying programming.
Some programming is an integral part of computer science but I do accept there are softer related IT degrees simply involving software

And not all who graduate have the makings of a good programmer - some go into other careers in business
Yes they do and not necessarily because they do not have the capacity to make a good programmer, but because they can find better careers elsewhere, like former university friend of DD who is now a highly paid management consultant working in house for a top company. This rather underlines my point that as a career its become downvalued thanks to the easy availablity of immigrants prepared to work for modest salaries (by British standards).

If what you need is an experienced C# coder with a few years experience under hie/her belt, of course you are not going to look for a graduate. You might look to recruit graduates, but they arrive knowing very little and take a long time to become competent in a commercial environment.

The best employers do take on NQs as trainees. This again underlines my point about British companies , the smaller or less good ones, not being willing to take on their share of training. How else can NQs become experienced? In countries such as Poland which do not import immigrants to do these jobs (well not on any scale) one must presume companies DO give a chance to their own youmg grads to learn on the job.

And comp science graduates are hard to recruit anyway (unless perhaps you are in one of the more attractive cities - London, Manchester, Bristol etc. Believe me, I've tried.

I absolutely acknowledge this. Its the same in so many industries. Hospitals in the sticks for example have trouble recruiting nurses (doctors fortunately are forced to work in them thanks to the deanery system).
Our young grads all want the bright city lights! This is a very interesting topic and merits a thread of its own.

As the article attached mentions the university courses do not necessarily turn out graduates with the skills needed in the marketplace
No but they arguably shouldnt have to. They are instead providing the background academic depth and mathematical basis which ultimately makes our computer science grads so sought after and why our universities are so highly respected around the world. By contrast coding is the easy part.

To answer the point about Remainers not liking Britain etc - most Remainers I have seen commenting do not hate Britain but what they do hate is the way that UK has changed over the last few months - attitudes to foreign people openly being hostile in many cases. This what most people don't like and it makes you ashamed of Britain and how it is being perceived abroad.
It is all very well for people to announce how the UK will only allow the people they want into the country for the jobs they need filled BUT will they be able to get people to apply for these positions when they see all the stories about hatred and maybe very restricted visas.
As to world wide trade - when TM was in India it was made clear to her that many more working visas would be part of the deal for trade with India. Indeed as part of the leave campaign Priti Patel made the announcement that once out of the EU there would be unrestricted immigration allowed from the Indian sub- continent. USA will want trade on their terms - and on it's own UK will have nothing like the leverage it has enjoyed with the EU behind it. The EU has some of the best regulations for the production of food and also safety rules and workers protection etc in the world - we will need to agree to much lower standards to trade with many other countries - USA being one. Only in the years to come will we really appreciate what we have lost and accepted as normal.

Why are you blaming the PM at this time Jess you don't know what will happen just yet.There is no reason at all that the UK should stop any scientists from abroad working here,nor do I think that is the intention ( to stop them) or for that matter good calibre students ( though there nay be a cap on foreign students).Controlled immigration is not the same as no immigration.

Go into any scientific establishment, or any postgrad pure science section of a good university and you will meet a lot of people from around the world.
But we have a PM who is alienating those who would come to study and work here.
It is a truth universally acknowledged (except on here) that we are not producing enough good calibre STEM graduates to support a successful science and technology sector.
Not even if you stopped UK STEM graduates going abroad to work.

Am looking forward to it Petra

It might not be good for some people's blood pressure to listen to TMs speech this afternoon [ grin]

Did anyone hear Anni Sloan talking on woman's hour? She almost chocked on her paint brush when Jane Garvey forced her to admit that brexit was good for her business.

I am sure you do dd although you seem to know a lot of horses mouths.....in every possible subject and career, and never tire of telling us about them.What a wide and varied life you must have had.

Don't worry, whitewave. Not only are the requirements to get into uni lower than many subjects, because they're so desperate, but undergrads are snapped up before they can escape.

The National Physical Laboratory is located in Teddington, so I would hope that there are some good physics jobs! What about other parts of the country?

No, dear roses, it really is not a myth that physicists are leaving the country for better opportunities abroad. Physics is a vast field and other countries support new technology better than the UK does, so our best and brightest physicists are going abroad. Not only that, but many physicists work in programming, which pays much better than research in physics does.

I live in 'Silicon Fen' and most of the people I know work in IT, science or medical research. They all say the same thing, namely that it's almost impossible even here to recruit good people. Approximately 25% of the people working in those areas come from abroad and employers are concerned about the visa situation.

The government has said it will match funding until 2020. Many projects last three years and are awarded in advance, so they are already being affected. That's a fact and I have it from a number of horses' mouths.

Where on earth in my post did I say there are no posts for physicists in the UK???!!!

I hope there are as that is a subject on of the GSs are thinking of pursuing.

No. I was not!!!!!! I wrote that there were too few physicists.

In that case Maizie explain the daft posts by djen ?
There is a lot of 'demonising' going on of Leavers btw and doom laden and untrue views about Britain generally, which give the impression ( rightly or not) that the holders of these views do not like thier own country very much.

I'm afraid you have changed tack there dd as you were certainly agreeing with ww there there are no careers for physicists in the UK.There are no lack of either jobs or people wanting to do them here in the Thames Valley, which has just about all the best scientific places to work in, all the publishing firms as well, and the best IT firms.
it's a myth that other countries are more attractive, in fact the only thing that you have said that could well be a problem is that joint enterprises, (and I am well aware that projects take a number of years think of the Hadron Collider!) could be held up because of fears of losing EU funding.However it will still be available for quite a long time, as we will still be in the EU and the government have already said they will match the funding.

If you read my posts Maizie you will see clearly that I for one do not hate either countries in Europe or in the rest of the world

And if you read my post you will see that I refer to 'ridiculous stereotypes', such that stated by Firecracker. Remainers do not hate Britain or the British. . Promulgating that belief is very near to demonising Remainers and has disturbingly fascist undertones. We are, on the whole, merely deeply concerned about the future of Britain; which we wouldn't be if we 'hated' Britain so much.

Just finished listening to the podcast....very good!
Seldon is a pleasure to listen to.He is so right that you don't know what it's like ( even if you think you may do) to actually be PM.I agree with him that T May has been exactly right to refuse to be rushed into any views about Brexit ahead of time, no matter how the mob bays for answers.Very interesting hearing about all the past PM's as well.

roses Nobody said there aren't jobs here for good scientists and programmers, but there aren't the people for the jobs, because other countries are more attractive.

The crackdown on visas for postdoc researchers is already having an impact on UK research funding. It's also having an impact on the opportunities for British researchers, because international teams are reluctant to include British scientists. Projects usually last a number of years and the fear is that EU funding won't be available for British team members.

Mair just because there might be more students doing computer science than our science does not mean that universities are producing enough graduates for the needs of UK industry. A does not equate to B in this case. And remember that computer science/IT is such a big subject these days - not all those studying it are studying programming. And not all who graduate have the makings of a good programmer - some go into other careers in business.
If what you need is an experienced C# coder with a few years experience under hie/her belt, of course you are not going to look for a graduate. You might look to recruit graduates, but they arrive knowing very little and take a long time to become competent in a commercial environment. And comp science graduates are hard to recruit anyway (unless perhaps you are in one of the more attractive cities - London, Manchester, Bristol etc. Believe me, I've tried.
As the article attached mentions the university courses do not necessarily turn out graduates with the skills needed in the marketplace. I remember a few years ago a programmer looking at what the OU was offering in the area and saying that it was many years out of date.
It's also well-nigh impossible to recruit teachers with any knowledge of the subject in secondary schools. Tried that too. Hen's teeth.
All levels of the industry are having to use foreign-trained programmers and testers. Most them are from outside the EU in my experience.
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/news/uk-job-market-experiencing-digital-skills-shortage/

I will have a listen to it.The crashing could be a bit of the building falling down....they should get on with those repairs!

I'm listening to a podcast between Matt Chorley and Sir Anthony Seldon about Theresa May in which Chorley asks "Does Theresa May know what she's doing?" and Seldon answers Yes.

I hope that if you click on podcast you can listen too, should you want to. Matt Chorley seems to like interviewing people in noisy situation, so there's a bit of House of Commons canteen crashing in the background, or something, at least in the first part.

Fortunately though, these posters are in the minority.

Typo......should read....ridiculous.

If you read my posts Maizie you will see clearly that I for one do not hate either countries in Europe or in the rest of the world ( far from it actually) but leaving the restrictions of the EU is a different thing altogether.You will also see that I was pointing out that there are careers, and very good ones, here for scientists.
I will never understand this attitude that British posters have ( a few, on this forum) that there is 'nothing here' for anyone with a good brain.It's ludicrous.

Firecracker. If we're going to talk in ridiculous stereotypes Remainers could equally say that Brexiters seem to hate the rest of the world.

durhamjen how can you be a global citizen when in other posts you have made you say you never travel?
If you were born in Britain you are British whether you like it or not.
Lots of Remainers seem to hate Britain and and the British people.