Theresa May 3

durhamjen

'The UK hardly imports any coal from the EU, including Poland and Lithuania, and never has done.'

Are you sure?

Joelsnan

I believe the point you raised was spoken of in the t.v programme on the closing of Kellingley Colliery recently. It is also certainly a part of the demise of the coal industry that I have certainly heard and read about.

Perhaps this link is worth taking a gander at, as it is from a credible source.

www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/dec/18/the-demise-of-uk-deep-coal-mining-decades-of-decline

'The pit closure programme accelerated in the 1990s as the deep mines came under pressure from cheap imports from low-wage economies in Russia and Poland. Only 21m tonnes were mined from 16 privatised deep mines using 13,000 staff.'

Perhaps the government's own figures are even more reliable!

The UK imported coal from Russia (and still does), but not Poland. Colombia has overtaken Russia as the biggest supplier. Neither of those countries is in the EU. The EU had nothing to do with pit closures.

JessM
Yes I suppose the coalition was largely the instigators of the demise of the NHS by turning the the institution into a commercial rather than social enterprise which now means that it has to procure as per the EU competition directive which has allowed the multinationals to undercut and win major contracts.
I think I might just blame everybody, my faith in the parliamentary system is at an all time low, but what's the alternative.

No, I'm not, POGS. I never said anything about coal. Must be linking me to the Durham coal fields.

The alternative is to stop doing it, Joelsnan. To bring the NHS back under its national title again, to stop the STPs, to stop pretending that it isn't just political will that pretends there is not enough money to fund it. The money is there, or could be. The Tory government wants to make money out of the NHS.

The alternative is to write to the Lords committee.

weownit.us6.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ef1f3f5b8067610251b19fb6c&id=f3702bbe43&e=9b816f1393

falseeconomy.org.uk/files/campaignguide03.pdf

I apologise durhamjen it was daphnedil who posted a response to joelsnan.

'The UK hardly imports any coal from the EU, including Poland and Lithuania, and never has done.'

Joelsnan 20.44 (discussing going into the Common Market)

' the pits closed in part because it was and still is cheaper to import polish coal'

The point is Joelsnan was speaking of a 'past' period of time and the effect of cheap coal imports on the UK coal industry.

You challenged her words by saying we never have had imports from Poland.

I challenged your view with a fact which is from the same period of time as joelsnan was discussing.

Then you move the goal post by talking about what happens as of now.

The two discussions are not comparable.

Daphnedill
Having come from a former mining region it was common knowledge that coal came from Poland during the demise of UK coalfields. I do not know where it comes from now. My point was that this coal expedited the closure of the mines quicker than they would have closed had the Thatcher government had to wait to convert the power stations to alternative fuels.i would imagine Polish fuel would not have attracted EU import levies.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/28/100m-arms-deal-turkey-blind-eye-rights-abuse

Common knowledge or not, Poland was not in the EU during the miners' strike, so what's the EU got to do with it?

Ironically, after WW2, there was a huge demand for coal and there was a shortage of miners, so Polish refugees were employed to keep the mines going.

There is no doubt that Thatcher handled the closing of pits appallingly, but there were an awful lot of myths thrown around by the NUM, especially Scargill, too. The NUM never achieved a majority in favour of strike at national level. This has nothing at all to do with the EU.

My ex-hubby comes from families of miners going back generations. Neither of his grandmothers wanted to send their sons down the pits, but had no choice. However, they made them attend evening classes for years, so they could find other jobs. Thank goodness they did. Mining is dirty and dangerous work and I'm glad my ex-hubby and son didn't have to do it. None of this has anything to do with the EU. On the contrary, the EU has given people opportunities my ex-hubby's father and uncle couldn't even have dreamed about.

Incidentally, the UK's imports from Poland are currently only about a quarter of Germany's imports from Poland. Germany is a wealthier country than the UK. The difference is that Germany exports more to Poland than the UK does. Blame the British government for that rather than the EU. When Germany shut down most of its mines in the 1960s, it had a planned industrial strategy to replace the jobs in more forward-thinking and cleaner industries, which didn't need government subsidies. Don't blame the EU for British governments' lack of planning.

POGS, My argument stands. The EU had nothing to do with the closure of pits in the 1980s.

Thatcher stocked poked coal from Poland before and during the strike

What does that have to do with the EU?

Daphnedill no one has said the EU had anything to do with pit closures what was said was the closures were speeded up as a result of cheap Polish Coal. This may well have been supplemented by coal from other countries at a later date. Poland did not accede to EU membership until 2004, however as we know from Turkey's application, there is a long run in of alignment and cooperation before this accession occurs and this started when Poland left the Soviet Union. So yes, Poland was not in the EU at that time but it does not mean that there was not 'special' terms applied to this fledgling member at this time.

What has your family working their way out of the having to go down the mines to do with the EU Daphne?

daphnedil

Your post directed to me @ 08.06.

I will elect to use the sensible reply from Joelsnan as her post sums up what I thought I had tried to say, the time line of the discussion is all important and never was about the EU.

Annie It wasn't MY family. It was my ex hubby's. All the men did go down the mines and I've heard many stories of the strike and how it affected them, directly from the people involved. They're all dead now. Most of them died from lung diseases and suffered for years before that from joint diseases caused by working in such awful conditions. Any society which wants to kill its men off prematurely by sending them down black holes in the ground is a diehard class warrior or hopelessly romantic.

Joelsnan YOU were the one who introduced the topic of cheap Polish coal. There was a temporary blip in 1982 in imports from Poland. However, Poland has NEVER been a major exporter of coal to the UK. Even in 1982, the amount imported from Poland was a fraction of the tonnage imported from the USA and Australia.

United Kingdom imports of coal from specified countries
(tonnes)
1981 1982January-April 1983
Consigned from:
USA 1,933,47 1,927,210427,508
Canada 104 30 76
Australia 1,799,87 1,131,701338,492
South Africa 77,178 62,8698,009
Poland 142,225 316,62446,474
USSR — 8,4591,970
Source: Data corresponding to SITC (R2) Sub-groups 322.1 and 322.2 in the United Kingdom Overseas Trade Statistics.

Another myth busted!

POGS Go and attack somebody else. I'm not playing.

PS. Sorry I couldn't get the columns to line up, but it's quite clear that by far the biggest esporters of coal to the UK in the priod leading up to the miners' strike were the USA and Australia.

"POGS Go and attack somebody else. I'm not playing."

Not Playing! Really, you have just sounded as though we are in a playground. I rather thought we were discussing sensibly , just goes to show.

Daphne, your knowledge of mining communities is nil, too much googling will confuse you , try the real world

Not Googling, Annie. ~lol~ Out of the mouths of men who went down the mines.

Don't you DARE patronise me!

Why didn't you mention American or Australian coal? Why didn't you mention that Scargill hated the Polish union, Solidarity, because it was in conflict with the Communist Party and spread the myth about Polish coal to undermine Solidarity?

It's not like you to support an unrepentant Marxist, who was still trying to wage his class war against the EU last year.

Pot kettle, dog bone comes to mind.

Daphne, you do have a problem with reading posts, msy I suggest in your eagerness to have your opinions on a thread prevents you from having time to read posts?

I have not mentioned Scargill, my only reference to the strike was there was a stock pile from Poland before the strike started. All I have done is defend my family against your constant insults

Suppose empty vessels do make the most noise

May has looked weak and needy over the Trump banning issue.

Week and needy? Needy of what?

I expect she's flippin' knackered after the couple of days she's had...

She's not very good at thinking on her feet though is she? She wanted the job, no one voted for her so she must live up to the office. Her speeches, are like most reasonable, although I can't say I agree with everything she says but given that she's had time to write them you would expect them to be ok, but her weakness is the ability to think on the run. Sometimes and almost certainly more and more she is going to be expected to give quick replies. This is a definite weakness.