Gransnet forums

News & politics

Brexit 5

(264 Posts)
thatbags Sun 20-Nov-16 07:41:16

Oh joy! Oh wonder! Tony effing Blair is trying to get on the Remoaner train to derail Brexit. "The PM's a lightweight and Corbyn's a nutter so I'm back".

How jolly! Everyone will be so pleased. We love you, Tony. [fingers down throat emoji]

grannypiper Sun 20-Nov-16 08:06:12

Well that's ruined my Sunday.Dont know which one is worse Tony "the treason" Blair or Jeremy "slopey shoulders" Corbyn

suzied Sun 20-Nov-16 09:22:09

I'm not sure if we want guidance from the likes of T B. Any more than the Breadsticks need Nigel F to guide them through the muddy waters ahead.

MaizieD Sun 20-Nov-16 09:26:39

If TB gets involved the waters just get even muddier..

durhamjen Mon 21-Nov-16 18:30:07

Remainers don't want Blair either. This might make him change his mind and clear off abroad again.

skwawkbox.org/2016/11/20/blair-used-uk-troops-against-uk-citizens-in-the-uk/

MaizieD Mon 21-Nov-16 22:11:14

90 Labour MPs have sent a letter to the Guardian saying that a 'hard' Brexit (which is what it's starting to look like might happen)would be a disaster for working people.

“Falling back on World Trade Organisation rules would not be a clean break but the most destructive, harshest of settlements, which would lead to fewer jobs, less business investment and would leave the British people poorer. This is not what they voted for in June.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/21/hard-brexit-disaster--working-people-labour-mps-letter?CMP=share_btn_tw

Problem is, it doesn't look as though we'll get anything else without agreeing to freedom of movement. How many Leavers would be prepared to compromise on this, I wonder?

Just out of interest, this is one person's vision of what a 'hard Brexit' might look like:

The ‘hard Brexit’ cliff edge: blocked roads, empty shelves, a country waiting to be exploited

inews.co.uk/explainers/iq/hard-brexit-cliff-edge-vision-leaving-eu-without-deal-imagined/

durhamjen Mon 21-Nov-16 22:18:56

I read today that Branson was about to sign a new contract with 3000 jobs available, but pulled it at the last minute.
They didn't vote for that either.

whitewave Tue 22-Nov-16 08:25:05

I would be surprised if there was a majority in Parliament for a hard Brexit. The trouble is, is what Brussels intends to do. We may not have any choice.

Welshwife Tue 22-Nov-16 09:18:51

Unfortunately Brussels and the other 27 nations can do as they like and just tell us what they have decided. The rules say that the country wishing to leave has no rights to be at the talks deciding how they will leave and the deal given to them and must accept the decision made. This was clearly stated before the vote so no good squealing about it now.
Brussels is aware that 48% wished to remain within the Union and maybe that will temper the decisions which will affect everyone in UK.

MaizieD Tue 22-Nov-16 20:41:17

Richard Branson's getting in on the act, too.

Sir Richard Branson funding new campaign group to fight Brexit

Branson partially funding group led by former Labour social mobility tsar Alan Milburn which aims to reverse referendum

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/21/sir-richard-branson-funding-new-campaign-group-fighting-brexit

Ginny42 Tue 22-Nov-16 20:52:21

I thought I was pretty unshockable following events of the past 6 months, but I have just read that Boris Johnson has now completely turned around his pre-referendum stance on Turkey's application to join the EU and is offering to help broker a deal for Turkey, despite the fact that we're leaving. Surely we should remain silent about issues which will no longer be our concern.

He was in the forefront of stoking the prejudice during the referendum campaign by suggesting thousands of Turkish migrants would flood into the UK if Britain remained in the EU. This was of course proven to be untrue and another case of post-truth politics.

durhamjen Tue 22-Nov-16 21:02:52

Not forgetting the fact that Turkey has just brought back capital punishment, which is not allowed in any EU country.
Wasn't Boris's grandfather Turkish?

Cunco Tue 22-Nov-16 22:03:09

If MPs are unable to accept the Referendum result, why did they not say so during the debate on the Referendum Bill which passed by a landslide on the Second Reading? It would have been good too if a few of them had said, given the long history of Euroscepiticism in the UK and the closeness of the Polls, that Leave might just win and the Government should prepare for either eventuality. Parliament voted resoundingly for a Referendum and they should stand by the result.

Ana Tue 22-Nov-16 22:07:22

No, durhamjen. His great-grandfather was, though.

MaizieD Tue 22-Nov-16 22:39:58

Parliament voted for a referendum which they understood to be advisory; we all know this as we have all, surely, seen the relevant section in the briefing paper they were given on it.

It was only after the bill had been passed that the promise of abiding by the result was made in that leaflet.

Though why the bill was nodded through without proper scrutiny and an insistence on more stringent conditions for observing the result, such as a certain percentage of voter turnout and a much larger majority either for or against, is puzzling. Except that I think that all the parties thought that Remain would win.

MaizieD Tue 22-Nov-16 22:47:12

It is very hard to understand what Boris is up to. He seems like a completely feckless and irresponsible idiot running around stirring up trouble wherever he fancies. Let's not forget that he fed the public lies about the EU years ago when he was supposed to be reporting on the EU.Just to amuse himself, it seems. But lies which endured...

Are there any Boris lovers on here who can convince us that he is sane and sensible?

Cunco Wed 23-Nov-16 08:36:51

MaizieD: I haven't seen it but I can accept that MPs were given a briefing document saying the Referendum was only advisory. So, why did they not debate it as such? Why did they pretend that it was binding and not a glorified opinion poll?

If MPs wanted to drive an even bigger wedge between Parliament and the people, they could hardly have conceived of a better plan. Now, many are making matters worse by lumping Leavers into dreadful ignorant and racist stereotype, trying to present themselves as the only home of tolerance and liberal values.

I have always thought myself tolerant and liberal. It's just that I think the EU (not Europe) is bureaucratic, undemocratic and, sadly, failing. Once, I was thought Left-Wing, now Right-Wing but I have never felt comfortable with either label.

I have often wondered, just what is it about Mr Junker that MPs find appealing as a leader? Given the arrogance and unfriendliness of Mr Junker and other EU spokesmen since the Referendum, I wonder if a Referendum would now produce an even more emphatic result.

Welshwife Wed 23-Nov-16 09:23:48

Cunco please could you explain what about the EU is undemocratic? The Parliament is made up of elected MEPs and each govt has a vote and a veto when it comes to legislation etc. They have far less beaurocrats (office workers/civil servants) than the UK for a much larger area and population. They act in exactly the same way as the Civil Service here and are asked by the elected members or the nations to look into certain subjects and formal ideas and legislation.
At the moment all the UK is doing is absolutely annoying the rest of the EU by their behaviour and what they are saying. Boris and Nigel continue to make us look foolish with their lack of knowledge of the EU and how it works and the rules. They are a laughing stock of the Parliament along with David Davis. I feel sorry for the more rational British MEPs who must be putting up with quite a lot.
It may well be that the UK will manage well outside the EU but reading about the obstacles in the way of getting trade agreements in place it will take a long long time during which it is very unclear what the country will do do - except rack up a lot more National Debt - that is if we are able to keep on borrowing.

JessM Wed 23-Nov-16 09:44:21

David Davis obviously pissed off everyone he met yesterday. They all talked about everything he'd said. Thus revealing just how daft the PM's stance is about keeping cards close to chest and not revealing "strategy".
He made a silly quip about how they'd got on splendidly because the other guy raced classic British cars!
Truth of the matter is that Cameron has left the UK high and dry. No canoe, let alone a paddle. No power at the "negotiating table". Anything they did broker could be vetoed by just one EU country. Pity nobody read Article 50 before Cameron recklessly promised a referendum. Is there an opposite to being made a Lord? A posting as governors of Tristan da Cuna? Oh no, the PM has probably got Farage pencilled in for that one.

Cunco Wed 23-Nov-16 09:54:29

Much as I may not like the outcome of our elections sometimes, our electorate can change our government every 5 years if it so wishes. We cannot change the EU. From the Referendum debate in Parliament, many MPs said the EU needed to be reformed but none said how. David Cameron tried to get concessions from the EU and got very little, even when our membership of the EU was at stake.

David Cameron tried to prevent Mr Junker being elected and again failed. I remember reading reports of Junker's election in both Telegraph and Guardian at the time. Both concluded that his election was undemocratic although, inevitably one praised Cameron for trying and one blamed Cameron for making things worse.

I viewed the Referendum vote as a choice between a rock and a hard place. I thought both campaigns were terrible and a chance for a discussion about the EU and our future in the EU but outside the Eurozone missed.

The Eurozone, which I have recently heard described as wobbly as a 3-legged table, will only survive if more economic and banking powers are centralised in an ever-closer union. Ultimately, our decision is all-in or all-out and that is where we have to make our choice. Mine has always been out.

daphnedill Wed 23-Nov-16 10:02:46

Juncker isn't the MPs' leader. He isn't even the MEPs' leader. He is the democratically elected President of the European Commission, which is the executive branch of the EU. It advises on legislation, but doesn't vote. MEPs, of which the UK has more than almost any other country, votes on legislation and in many cases has the power of veto. MEPs are elected by PR, so are more democratic than the Houses of Parliament. I just don't get this claim that the EU isn't democratic.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the status of the referendum and the conduct of those involved in the campaign. The facts were there, but drowned out by propaganda, appeals to the emotions and misleading information (lies). I would feel more confident about the future, if I were convinced that everybody knew how the EU works and what they were voting for. I'm not convinced and, sadly, people still come out with stuff which shows that they don't understand the EU and the consequences of leaving.

Cunco, do you honestly think that leaving the EU will remove the 'wedge' between Parliament and the people? I don't see it. The country as a whole is going to be worse off, which will mean managing the economy better for all, not just a minority. One way or the other, many people are going to be losers (almost certainly those already at the bottom of the pile), which will alienate people even more. Voting against the EU wasn't the answer. Whether or not the UK is in the EU, it needs a government which cares more about equality and has long-term strategies.

daphnedill Wed 23-Nov-16 10:06:33

Cameron actually got quite a bit from his discussions, including a delay in paying benefits to EU citizens for four years. The UK has always been in a favoured position, because it isn't in the Eurozone or Schengen. If the UK tries to crawl back in the future, you can bet anything you like that it won't be granted those favours. Juncker was democratically elected, whatever the Telegraph claimed.

daphnedill Wed 23-Nov-16 10:11:23

Please could the PM arrange for Farage to be transported to Tristan da Cunha in an unseaworthy dinghy. wink

Welshwife Wed 23-Nov-16 10:22:04

Daphne. grin

annodomini Wed 23-Nov-16 10:46:45

If you start a petition, dd, I'll sign it.