Brexit 5

I don't want to go over old ground but several things stated as fact in this thread are shown as not fact in Full Fact. It is a useful source and I thank you for pointing it out.

I am surprised that some view sovereignty as of little importance. I am not sure what our colonial past shows, other than we, like our European neighbours, put our commercial interests ahead of humanity. Countries do some good things and some bad. Taking others' sovereignty was, and is, bad in my view.

The good that we have had from EU membership has hardly been understated by politicians or some sections of the press, particularly during the Referendum campaign. What has been understated economically was finding and exploiting North Sea oil which gave the UK a much needed boost from the 1980's.

Azie says: 'The possible 'lurch right' in France and Germany is led by the same bunch of dull minded, xenophobic, racist thugs who glory in committing hate crimes, as here.' Really? I cannot speak for Germany or France but please name our leaders who glory in committing hate crimes.

Personally, I am not scared of another Referendum. I think it makes a nonsense of the first one and it might just produce the same result. Sadly, in matters of the EU, there is form of having a second Referendum when the people failed to give the right answer first time. I wonder if people in Ireland are now happy that they voted to join the Eurozone at the second time of asking.

What makes me very sad is the inability of people to discuss Brexit to understand the other point of view. Yah-boo politics seems to be the default position. I suppose I am lucky that I have family and friends who voted Remain so to insult the other side would be to insult the ones I love most.

@Azie

No, I don't think the Conservatives would have an absolute majority. The LibDems might pick up a few of the seats they lost in the last election and Labour is in real danger of losing seats to Ukip. I'm assuming the SNP will hang on to its Scottish seats, but I don't know enough about Scottish politics to know. The Conservatives would probably be the biggest party with Ukip holding the balance of power - frightening thought.

If every constituency makes the next GE about Brexit, Ukip will wipe out Labour in much of the North and East Midlands :-( (if they have enough people capable of being an MP).

It might not, roses, if every constituency makes it about Brexit and not any other problem. Now we know some of the difficulties that Brexit is going to cause, lots of voters might change their minds.
That's why Brexiteers are scared of another referendum.

Cunco I didn't realise that you were a man, but I do think your posts are clear, logical and not at all personal.
The Lib Dem win in Richmond is a blip because of the high percentage of Remain voters in Richmond.Come a GE it will be another story.

Quite agree Durhamjen. Excellent questions with no good answers.

I don't think Brexiteers can tell me which EU laws they want repealed. I'd really like to know.

If sovereignty is thought to be such a good thing that we need to 'take ours back', why were we so keen to take it away from lots of other countries over the centuries?

I don't think those who voted Remain and who are now concerned about the implications of Brexit are necessarily going to change their minds if France and Germany 'lurch right'. Our lives have been vastly improved by EU membership, a fact which has been hidden by the powers that be and the press. The potential cost to the country is going to be crippling, the need to employ thousands of civil servants and lawyers to disentangle 40 years of membership will well outweigh any benefits gained through not paying contributions to Brussels. Never mind bribing companies to stay, the details of which we will never know.

The possible 'lurch right' in France and Germany is led by the same bunch of dull minded, xenophobic, racist thugs who glory in committing hate crimes, as here. Our young people have been done a great misservice, the bright and able, two of mine included, are heading elsewhere. Interesting to see the Richmond result this morning, the Tories may have a poll lead at the moment but I'm not so sure they'd walk away with a victory if an election were held in the near future.

They also voted Tory in large numbers in the last election Cunco so this represents a mass vote against the hard-Brexit position of the government. Albeit from affluent people who probably, on average, take a keen interest in the economy and the factors that affect it.
It is also a reduction in a slim government majority.
It is also remarkable that Brexit trumped Heathrow in one of the boroughs most affected. I have relatives living there and there is a procession of aircraft approaching Heathrow at low altitudes, that starts at about 4.30 and keeps going until very late in the evening.
Regarding gender on GN - I reckon I can guess, within a minutes often, when a member is male. Don't know what it is, but men have a a different style of posting.

The liberals campaigned on an anti-hard Brexit. That is was the people of Richmond voted for.

Strangely enough, Cunco, I think the exact opposite to you, and I have been using fullfact to back me up on here for years.

People are often quoting our Magna Carta as being of supreme importance to our governance, but only three clauses of the Magna Carta still stand, one to do with London, one to do with the church, and the third to do with anyone guilty of a crime to be tried by his/her peers.
That last one has been overturned by this government.

If that can happen to the Magna Carta, what chance does the ordinary person have once all EU laws have been repealed in the Great Repeal Act? I don't fancy Theresa May's legal team having charge over that.

Azie: Being a man or a woman is not relevant to the Brexit debate, nor the need to educate and re-educate ourselves. I have been stimulated to learn from this discussion. The Full Fact website has, for me, underlined that sovereignty has been lost and that some statements, expressed here as fact, are not so.

whitewave: Richmond voters voted 70% Remain, according to the BBC, so it is hard to say that the result is representative of the country. I agree that some of us are fed up with intolerance an prejudice.

A thought occurred to me yesterday. If Germany and France take a lurch to the Right, and the EU is no longer perceived as Liberal, would that alter the views of Remain supporters about the EU? Of course, it's hypothetical. It could never happen, could it?

Richmond voters give a clear message to this rubbish government.

We do not want a hard Brexit. We are fed up with intolerance and prejudice.

LOL DJ No it obviously was not the correct link [grin}

Maybe they'll think differently this time, Maizie....if they look at it.
I knew I'd seen it before, but wasn't sure if it was on another forum.

I think the last link you posted has been seen before, dj. I believe that some Gnetters were not amused...

Was that the right link, Jess?

Has this been on before?

twitter.com/DuncanCastles/status/798823837114564613/photo/1

www.indy100.com/article/daily-mail-report-financial-fear-brexit-decline-print-sales-7450056

Daily Mail is worried that Brexit means it will lose money! Who'd have thought it?

So what is your definition then Ana?
Very entertaining news from David Davis, that we could leave the EU but still end up paying fir access to the single market. What a surprise.
democracy.anglesey.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=120&MId=2950&Ver=4&LLL=0

My definition says supreme power, especially that yielded by a monarch.
Depends on your dictionary, doesn't it?

I was talking about 'sovereignty' in relation to Brexit. Which is what this thread is about, of course...

So what do you think sovereign means?

There's no mention of a monarch in the dictionary definition.

That's what Jess said, that parliament acts like the monarch and has supreme sovereignty.