An oath on British Values?

Exactly, Maizie, which is why my two daughters in law have not changed their citizenship - they didn't have to, and they still think of the country they were born in as important.
Up until June it wasn't important to think about changing it. They are European, like we still are. But now, they are in limbo. The people in the article are really being used as pawns in the game of Brexit.

Durham. If your DILs are Europeans married to Brits, or Brits married to Europeans, they are not "in limbo" since their marriage secures their place in Britain or in an EU country.

No it doesn't, Mair.
Read the links. They are about married people who have been told they have to leave the UK, even though they are married to UK citizens.

The only logical response to this last series of postings is "How bizarre!" Talk about down the [white] rabbit hole. My father emigrated to England from The Netherlands in 1915 at the age of three. He was educated and grew up there, worked and paid taxes there, married a Brit, bought a house, fathered and supported two daughters through to the end of higher education. He spoke perfect English (as well as quite a few other languages). He had no desire to become a British citizen, although he had some strong political views but could not vote, and never did. There was a wee glitch about his right to residency in 1945 – as there was for many – but that was quickly sorted out. He died in 1979 so the EU, the Schengen agreement and so on really did not affect his life.

Sometimes immigrants want to become citizens of their new country; sometimes they don't, especially if it means relinquishing their original citizenship. It doesn't mean that they haven't become a worthwhile participant in their new country's society. I haven't decided yet whether I shall apply for citizenship in NZ. I have residential status and cannot apply for citizenship for another couple of years. It's quite an expensive process here. Does anyone know what it costs in the UK? Here, we have to swear an oath to the Queen and her successors but I don't think anyone, even our recently resigned right-wing prime minister, has suggested an oath on New Zealand values.

That is rubbish the simple fact is she had the opportunity to take out British citizenship and she didn't bother. And what's all this emotive 'how dare she?' rubbish. Don't follow your 'reasoning'.

It's OK you trying to put a spin on this but it's a bit like saying 'I knew my pension wasn't going to cover my needs but didn't get round to topping it up' an then moaning it's too little, when you've had 24 years to get things sorted. And just because your DIL made the same mistake doesn't make her any better. There are plenty of foreign nationals who married UK citizens who had the foresight to take out British Citizenship if it really mattered to them.

And here we go playing the compassion card. Of course there's only some who have the monopoly on compassion and the rest of us hard-hearted bitches. You've over played that card too often. Her father dying in the Nederland, that was a long drawn out death over 24 years then was it?

I think that's a bit harsh, Anya. I know plenty of EU citizens who are in the same situation. With the UK in the EU, there was no need to take out citizenship. The only difference is that they can't vote in the UK. Although not in the EU, my uncle and aunt emigrated to Canada in the 1970s and never took out Canadian citizenship. They were residents, worked there, paid their taxes, etc etc. They always felt British, but were loyal to Canada. I've never been in that situation, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Taking out citizenship can be an expensive process, so maybe I wouldn't bother, unless there were advantages.

Nothing to add except to say that members of my family have dual nationality because it seemed the sensible thing to do if they reside in a country other than their birth country. It's not the UK at fault if Danes were not allowed dual nationality - the same thing has happened with Danish/Australian friends due to Denmark's stance on nationality.

Apllying for a permanent residency visa is the very expensive part of the process which is necessary if you want to live and work in many countries. I am not sure how much extra that citizenship costs after that.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/12/the3million-campaign-group-letter-theresa-may-eu-citizens-in-uk-right-to-remain

Durham said
^No it doesn't, Mair.
Read the links. They are about married people who have been told they have to leave the UK, even though they are married to UK citizens.^

As Anya has said that silly Dutchwoman has only herself to blame!
She wasnt even willing to hand in her passport! Does sh think British citizenship should be handed out like smarties?

"Hawkins said the Home Office had overlooked vital information in her submission – she was unable to supply an original of her Dutch passport because her father had recently died and she needed her passport to continue to travel to the Netherlands to support her mother."

If your DILs are concerned they should simply get their citizenship sorted.

So what exactly do you think British values should be, Mair? How would British and Danish values differ? I would have thought they would be quite similar.

The son of a friend ended up paying nearly £5000 for full British citizenship. It was worth it to him, for all sorts of reasons, but I'm not convinced that the paperwork involved actually cost that much.

What are these British values which are worth £5000 per individual?

I don't think you've read the article very closely, Mair. she hadn't previously applied for British citizenship because she didn't have to. She was entitled to be here as an EU citizen. It appears that she applied for British citizenship after the referendum because of the uncertainty about the future status of EU nationals who are currently settled in the UK. She couldn't supply her passport for an extended length of time (and it took 4 months for the Home Office to process her application) because she needed to frequently travel to the Netherlands. She supplied a full explanation of why she couldn't supply the original but did supply a notarised copy of it. This seems to be completely reasonable. In fact, the unreasonableness seems to be on the part of the Home Office who took such a long time to process her application. And the fact of potentially depriving her of her passport for 4 months.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of EU citizens in this position, long term resident, British spouses, who have never needed to take British nationality in order to be here legally.

I'm finding some Leavers' reactions to stories of loss, uncertainty and disruption of lives caused by the Brexit vote on this thread, and others, to be almost unbelievable. Mean minded, contemptuous of 'foreigners' and completely lacking in empathy. I begin to wonder if these are actually more representative of British Values than we had previously thought.

I agree with your last sentence, Maizie. Such attitudes have been evident throughout the debate.

So what exactly do you think British values should be, Mair? How would British and Danish values differ? I would have thought they would be quite similar.

I havent commented about British values daph. I commented simply about the IMO entirely false hysteria over the likelihood of EUers with British spouses being 'kicked out'. It will not happen other than in the equally unlikely scenario that the EU or a member state chooses to treat Brits married to EUers in this way.

Perhaps your DILS should focus on lobbying their governments to treat British immigrants well?

There are hundreds, if not thousands of EU citizens in this position, long term resident, British spouses, who have never needed to take British nationality in order to be here legally.

I'm finding some Leavers' reactions to stories of loss, uncertainty and disruption of lives caused by the Brexit vote on this thread, and others, to be almost unbelievable. Mean minded, contemptuous of 'foreigners' and completely lacking in empathy. I begin to wonder if these are actually more representative of British Values than we had previously thought.

I am finding the attitude of Bremoaners to the future security of British immigrants in the EU equally callous and contemptuous.

Why do you ONLY care about EUers here and not Brits over there?

May needs to strike a deal protecting both.

I am finding the attitude of Bremoaners to the future security of British immigrants in the EU equally callous and contemptuous.

I'm sorry!! Would you care to give us an example? It wasn't a 'remainer' who told Granjura it was 'tough luck' when she said how their pension had lost 20% in value and that they had had to abandon plans for the holiday of a lifetime because of the Brexit vote.

And, you might not have been around at the time but it was agreed that in the interests of remaining fairly civil on these threads neither 'side' would use derogatory titles for each other.

Ok Maizie sorry to call people Bremoaners. Perhaps you should bear in mind the need to keep "civil" when on the other thread you rudely described me as a 'charmer' for making a pretty mild mannered comment about a politician?

Lets keep it polite indeed!

I have heard numerous callers on phone ins demanding that EUers rights be protected unilaterally.

Of course this shows a callous contempt for the protection of British citizens who are living in the EU. It would be utterly irresponsible for May not to put their interests first.

If you think that 'taking a kicking' is 'mild mannered' then we clearly have completely different values and there is nothing more to be said.

Indeed, Maizie! Shame there isn't an 'ignore' function on Gransnet.

In context Maizie, it is certainly mild compared to the viciously biased anti UKIP blog that Daphne linked to!
AND I clearly meant it metaphorically, a kicking at the polls.

I am not suggesting physical violence towards Merkel which you seem to wish to imply. I simply hope Merkel does get a good kicking in the elections.

There is Daphne. Its called 'willpower'.

As many of you know I voted to leave the eu, but I really do think that this home office attitude is bordering on a monty python sketch.

I believe, as do many others who voted to leave, think that immigrants who are working, have a family, been here for a number of years be given citizenship ( if they want it)

the viciously biased anti UKIP blog that Daphne linked to!

I'm getting lost off here! Can you relink to this blog, please. I don't condone the language of violence on either side.

WRT being indifferent to the Brits in the EU I don't recall having said anything that would give you that impression. I think it is pointless and unkind to use British nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK as bargaining chips. They should both get the same treatment. Which, in my opinion, is guaranteeing the right to remain for both if they were resident at the time of the referendum. That includes access to pensions and medical care on the same terms as now. It is patently unfair to disrupt people's lives unnecessarily.

WRT being indifferent to the Brits in the EU I don't recall having said anything that would give you that impression

I didnt say you personally had, but there is a callous indifference towards them emanating from those 'Remain' voters who want May to recklessly guarantee the future of EUers here unilaterally.

I would extend that to say that any complaints about the situation of these EUers which fails to acknowledge the two sides of the coin is a demonstration of this attitude.

They should both get the same treatment.

Absolutely which means May cannot afford to guarantee the rights of EUers unilaterally, throwing British citizens on the mercy of the EU which so far is showing itself (as Remainers like to emphasize) tending towards playing hardball.

I think it is pointless and unkind to use British nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK as bargaining chips.

Sadly unavoidable while the EU plays truculent and eager to "punish" Britain. May would be absolutely MAD to throw this powerful chip away (bearing in mind there are more EUers here than Brits over there).

I believe, as do many others who voted to leave, think that immigrants who are working, have a family, been here for a number of years be given citizenship ( if they want it)

Petra those who have lived here five years are entitled to apply.
This is a shorter 'wait' for citizenship than some EU countries impose and the conditions are less strict. German citizenship is much tougher to earn. Again surely you arent suggesting May should ease restrictions unilaterally?