An oath on British Values?

I presume the teachers of your grandchildren have to teach them about British values, Jalima.

Yes, grannypiper, maybe all MPs should have to sign up to them first. If they break them, is it treasonable?

My grandchildren and I have so much we talk about but the national caricculum ? no

British state schools have taught topics such as rights and responsibilities, the law particularly relating to young people, ethics and different cultures for as long as I can remember as part of a PSHE curriculum.

The (not so) hidden agenda here is quite clear and most teachers I know are aware of it. There are faith schools, which do not teach the above, especially if the law conflicts with religious teaching.

If a school is designated as a 'faith school' by the DfE it can promote its own teaching. Catholic schools do this. The schools which have been particularly criticised for not preparing children for life in modern Britain by Ofsted are Jewish and Muslim schools. Creationist and Steiner schools have also faced the same criticism.

Life in modern Britain? You mean teach children of the ills of modern Britain ?

No, pupils are usually taught about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and how individual rights involve both rights and responsibilities. They discuss how their rights can conflict with the rights of others and whether the rights are, in fact, ethical. The United States refuses to sign a number of human rights conventions, including being one of only three UN countries not to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Pupils are taught about the various ages of consent for sexual activity, buying alcohol and tobacco, driving, etc. They are also taught about the significance of a criminal record for future employment and travelling abroad.

Pupils are also taught about equality law and what that means in practice. They are taught about the definition of theft and assault, etc.

The above are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.

To be granted British citizenship, people already have to swear the following oath:

"I, [name], [swear by Almighty God] [do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare] that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs, and successors, according to law."

Since 2004, they also have to pledge the following:

"I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen."

Does anybody know what's so 'new' about the current proposals? What else should any new oath and pledge include?

What's new about the current proposals is that it is all people who work for any local or national government institution.
I don't think every school teacher had to swear an oath before. Binmen? Councillors?

I presume they do djen but mainly I leave their education to the school and their parents apart from an occasional open day when I go and admire their work and a rare request to help with homework if mummy and daddy are at work and I am looking after them.
Otherwise I don't interfere apart from reading their reports which didn't mention anything about British values.

And the other DGC is not British!

www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2016/dec/19/sajid-javid-british-values-oath-what-it-might-look-like

Ahem! That's a spoof.

Binmen very often don't work for the council, because the service has been outsourced. Ours haven't, so does that mean my binmen will be more loyal than those in the neighbouring authority. This is all a big fat red herring to outkipper the kippers.

Mark Carney is Canadian. Is he supposed to pledge an oath of allegiance to the UK?

I did realise it's a spoof, daphne. I'm not that daft.
This is the real one.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/18/sajid-javid-british-values-oath-casey-review-social-integration

Binmen are council workers, are they not?

'Every public office-holder should swear an oath of allegiance to British values, the communities secretary, Sajid Javid, has said.

The loyalty pledge would be expected to cover elected officials, civil servants, and council workers.'

From the article.

Sorry, you answered that in your previous post. The answer is that I do not know which binmen should have to swear an oath of allegiance to British values. More importantly, I imagine Sajid Javid hasn't thought that one through either.

I liked Zoe Williams' article about the stupid idea:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/18/oath-allegiance-british-values-politics-sajid-javid

Incidentally, MPs, representatives of regional assemblies and the House of Lords, privy counsellors, the armed forces, police officers and judges already have to take an oath.

To be perfectly honest I do think that the government is pandering to the masses.

Throughout history there has been moral panics about various immigrants from Catholics, Irish, Jews, Blacks and now Muslims. If you look at what actually happens given time, the second and third generations are assimilated into the British Cluture and the panic subsides. This is what will happen with the latest lot of immigrants. By the time of the third generation they will perfectly assimilated. Sound exactly the same as the rest of us and probably moaning about the latest lot of immigration.

I like the idea that the important thing is to keep them pledging, even though they do not believe in what they are pledging.
Like when we agreed to the pledge to abstain from alcohol in the Life Brigade. No idea what it meant then.

Like Zoe Williams says, a lot of those people have broken the oath they signed up to already, and they would definitely have problems agreeing to Javid's.

I was talking about people wanting to live here agreeing to certain basic principles, if they don't agree with these I am not suggesting they go anywhere as where they are can't be found bad if what is asked is too much fir them to beat. To talk of deporting people, who has mentioned that? The only reason to deport would be for illegals which is a different matter all together. However I do sometimes feel ashamed at the behaviour if some born and bred here and their anti social behaviour, such as people living next door or in the same street as unruly yobs which make law abiding people's lives a misery. You could go on.

You do go on.
However, you are not in charge, but those who are do talk about deporting people.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years?CMP=share_btn_tw

Why on earth didn't that woman apply for British citizenship in the 24 years she's been living here then? She's married to a British man, has two children by him so really she's been remiss in not applying.

Cake and eat it comes to mind.

Because it's quite legal to do. Until Brexit there was no need.
Neither of my daughters in law have taken British citizenship.
It's nothing to do with having your cake and eating it.
If you read the article you will see she has been contributing to the country, not just taking from it.
One of my daughters in law has been in the country for over 20 years. She's teaching British children.....how dare she? She has two children with my son. How dare she do that and not become a British citizen! Very remiss of her, too.
The other one is also teaching British children.
What? Foreigners teaching British children!

Strange you don't have any compassion for someone who couldn't give her Dutch passport to the authorities for the required length of time because her father was dying in the Netherlands.
Did you miss that bit out when you read the article?
She obeyed the laws, she did nothing wrong. She is in danger of being split from her family because of an administrative error.

I suppose some do not want to give up their nationality . Will this apply to the British who have retired to Spain?

She's not the only one, either.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/eu-citizens-in-britain-post-brexit-vote-feel-betrayed-not-at-home-sad

Whoever made up the rules is an idiot. I think it was Theresa May, in the Home Office when these rules came about.
There's one woman in that article who had to get her children's school to write a letter to say she was at the school gates every day, because she was a stay at home mum, and had no documentation in her name. There's a German engineer, who needs his passport to travel every week, and was sent the same letter.

The law really is an ass, in these cases.

I suppose some do not want to give up their nationality

Is citizenship the same as nationality?

This is surely a consequence of T May's refusal to confirm the residency rights of non British EU nationals post Brexit. It seems the claim is that she's using it as a bargaining counter. Which is daft as many of the other EU countries have our British citizens living there. The one cancels out the other.

Maizie, some countries do not accept dual nationality, so if you take citizenship of the country you live in, you have to relinquish the citizenship of the country you were born in.

But surely 'nationality' is more than just being an official 'citizen' of a country?

I would still feel English even if I'd been obliged to change my citizenship status.

So if you can't surrender your passport for about 6 months you can't become a British citizen, if you can't remember every single instance when you left the country in the last 20 odd years and list it you can't become a British citizen. In fact if you are an EU national it is bloody difficult to become a British Citizen, even if you are married to a Brit and have lived and worked here for yonks. You couldn't make it up!!
I don't see how these regulations fit in with our alleged tolerance!