An oath on British Values?

mair you have turned the truth onto its head in your post @9.33.

Those opposing Brexit prior to the referendum warned consistently against a Norwegian type deal.

Never fear - hard Brexit will happen whatever anyone says.

Your flowery use of language is interesting. Context is all, and you certainly make full use of it

Negotiation generally works best if you strive for a win-win outcome. In order to do this it nearly always works best if you can bring about some kind of rapport and good feeling between the two sides, rather than adopting strategies that tend to increase the hostility of your opponent. If May continues to antagonise other EU members she will not get the best deal. We will, after all, still need (desperately need) to trade successfully with the EU after leaving. And we really want UK nationals to still be welcome in all of the EU states.
I would therefore suggest to her that she takes a brave step and makes a very early decision which would assure those who are now here and in employment or in a family relationship with a UK resident, that they can remain indefinitely, whatever happens. This would also forestall the brain drain that universities and NHS are beginning to suffer.
However I fear that she does not have the vision to take this bold step.

She has neither the vision nor a plan according to one of our best negotiators.

Now is the time to give that reassurance I agree Jess and to say that those (legally) in the UK today can remain. This would also put a spoke in the wheels of those few who seem to think Brexit is just about getting rid of 'foreigners' who 'take our jobs'

Also a reassurance needs to be given to farmers that they can recruit seasonal pickers PDQ before they find jobs in other countries and we are left with crops rotting in the fields.

Mair
When pro mass immigrationists come out with this kind of nonsense I believe they really show themselves up as brainwashed foot soldiers of the powerful forces working towards no borders and a globalised world.

The globalised world is already with us. My son works with a Greek and a Croatian both of whom pay taxes and are resident here. My cousin worked in Germany for a long time. My other cousin is at present in Zurich, but is a UK resident with property and a business here. Other relatives have links in business and family with Singapore and Hong Kong. We are just one family. You can't turn the clock back even with Brexit things will become more international.

WW said
"Those opposing Brexit prior to the referendum warned consistently against a Norwegian type deal."

Prior to the referndum they thought theyd win! its a different story now, a Norwegian deal looks like a pretty good option to most Remainers. Wouldn't you like it yourself?

Jess said
"If May continues to antagonise other EU members she will not get the best deal."
The antagonising is all coming from some of the more aggressive on the EU side not from May, Jess, the threats, the spite.
"We will, after all, still need (desperately need) to trade successfully with the EU after leaving."
And they with us. We are a massive customer

"And we really want UK nationals to still be welcome in all of the EU states."
Is this a euphemism for free movement? Then no, its very clear we don't want that and we can hardly expect it to be free movement for Brits while we control who we accept, but you never know.

Anya said:
"Now is the time to give that reassurance I agree Jess and to say that those (legally) in the UK today can remain"
Why dont you call for the EU to give that reassurance to Brits Anya? If they did then its very likely May will respond in kind.

Trisher said:
"The globalised world is already with us."
Do you really think the project is complete Trisher?
Theyre barely half way there, open borders, one world governance, on world currency, one world police force, a microchipped population, everyone living in equal poverty under the thumb of a super wealthy elite. Oh no we dont quite have Brave New World yet.

Jalima said:
why should they not keep their own nationality unless they are from a country which won't allow dual nationality and they would prefer to renounce it in favour of UK citizenship?

Would you agree that Britain shouldn't even grant dual nationality to citizens of those countries which are not willing to rciprocate by allowing dual nationality to British migrants?

This is another example of Britain being far too 'soft' and letting our own citizens down.

Do you hold dual citizenship Jalima? Are you an immigrant or of an immigration background and entitled to dual citizenship through jus sanguinis - thus not objective?

It isn't a "project" Mair simply the result of young, mobile people who can travel between places, settle where they are happiest and live a rich full life wherever they are. Trying to turn the clock back never works. If you imagine it is some sort of conspiracy you are really labouring under a delusion. Fifty years ago moving to live in a new place in Britain away from your family became more common, now people move countries.
Forgot to mention my relatives in America and in Europe. In fact thinking about it I must have relatives on every single continent!

If the elite didnt want it to happen Trisher then it wouldnt. Plenty of rich and emerging countries are not accepting large numbers of immigrants. It's not a 'force of nature'.

Aren't the elite now the Brexiters?

mair I think the question really ought to be asked what you want as the Brexiters are in charge now, so your decision is what will affect us not mine or the remainers. You need to get used to not being on the outside now. Brexiters are those now with the responsibility, and we as remainers are waiting to see how successful you will be.

Language getting ever more colourful Mair - is that your original work?

Would you agree that Britain shouldn't even grant dual nationality to citizens of those countries which are not willing to rciprocate by allowing dual nationality to British migrants?

No, we have the laws on nationality in the UK and we do not need to over-complicate them just because other countries have different rules for their citizens.

Do you hold dual citizenship Jalima? Are you an immigrant or of an immigration background and entitled to dual citizenship through jus sanguinis - thus not objective?

rather intrusive question.

My ancestors were immigrants in about 1650, not sure that they needed passports then.

ps the other lot came in about 550 AD I think

Blimey jalima ancestry.com has nothing on you

I reckon looking at some of our Cornish relatives we may have originated in the Mediterranean -but that's only a guess. I suppose probably 95% of our population are as a result of immigration.

no, it is just an old Saxon name!

I worked with a Cornish girl who had a Spanish surname - well, it was her married name and her DH's ancestors were Spanish - she said from the Armada but I wonder they could have been traders.

Yes I'm sure that's right, and may well have been of the Islamic faith.

Visit to Spain this year and was impressed as how well the Muslim rulers ensured that all faiths were integrated and treated equally, including those immigrants from Asia- the gypsies. It all fell apart when the Christians took over. But that is really an aside.

Good grief Mair I hope you do not represent British Values! Just popped on here and find some of this extremist rhetoric most un British!

Not all those who voted to leave the EU are xenophobes but obviously some are! Not all those that voted to remain are left wing but some are! It is not clear cut and both leave/remain camps are still divided on what they would prefer to happen once the process to extricate Britain from the EU gets going more fully.

As the child of an 'immigrant' man who married an English woman I still have two clear roots and whatever my passport says, wherever I live and whatever bigots spout I will enjoy, value and participate in the culture of two different places of which I will always be a part. One is not more important than the other: different but equal.

It is perhaps unfair to 'blame' Theresa May for the lack of cooperation on the subject of 'Reciprocal Arrangements'.

I think there is either a selective memory loss, or possibly no knowledge of the EU statements on the subject by Donald Tusk and Angela Merkel for example?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/

'Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk on Tuesday united to block Theresa May's attempt to fast-track a deal which would have created an amnesty for British ex-pats and EU migrants in the UK post-Brexit.

Mrs May had proposed that EU workers currently living in the UK be allowed to remain in exchange for an agreement which gives British expats in the European Union the same rights.

She had hoped to announce a deal within weeks but while more than 20 EU nations have signalled they are prepared to agree to a reciprocal arrangement, Mrs Merkel has rebuffed Mrs May's attempts to come to an agreement.

Her position was then backed by the president of the European Council, Mr Tusk, who on Tuesday said that Mrs May and British voters had created "anxiety and uncertainty" for migrants. He told Mrs May she must trigger Article 50 – the formal mechanism for leaving the European Union – immediately to dispel those fears.'.
--

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/29/donald-tusk-turns-on-tories-in-row-over-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk

'Tusk said the EU “stands ready” to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU, including reciprocal rights, but could only do so ' once the process formally begins '. “Let me reiterate, however, that the decision about triggering article 50 belongs only to the UK, which we fully respect,” he said.'
-u

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html

'But Ms May's attempt at a “reciprocity deal”, which would have guaranteed the existing rights of around 1.2 million British people on the continent and millions of EU migrants in the UK, was blocked by the German Chancellor.'.

It is a folly to keep banging on about what should / could happen , it is simply not the case any party can 'dictate' the terms no matter how unsavoury the subject matter.

The best we can hope for is the political elite stop being so b----y pathetic , work for a common good and shut up about the need for a Federal Europe and Free Movement of People, both of which are quickly turning into nothing more than jokes.

Visit to Spain this year and was impressed as how well the Muslim rulers ensured that all faiths were integrated and treated equally, including those immigrants from Asia- the gypsies. It all fell apart when the Christians took over. But that is really an aside.

As you say, whitewave, an aside - but when did this happen? Surely you're not blaming Christians (and their 'takeover') for all the problems between religious groups?

I'm not sure what "British values" are supposed to be. As the posts on Gransnet demonstrate, there isn't agreement on a lot of issues that could be described as value-based so it seems unrealistic to believe there is a set of values that is peculiar to Britain or any other country.

It seems to me that the only values it might be thought reasonable for every country to aspire to are very basic ones like not hurting other people by word or deed and doing our best to give help where it is needed. Neither this country nor any other seems to have achieved that goal.

I expect most people have friends and relatives who have emigrated to other countries and presumably there are certain "values" that they take with them but perhaps they are British "customs" and modes of behaviour rather than British "values". Although I suppose it could be said that the way a country is governed - its laws, etc. - may eventually affect what its citizens believe to be desirable or undesirable ways of behaving towards each other.

Good post Eloethan

POGS good to remind everyone that T May did her best to agree reciprocal arrangements but Merkel turned it down!

ana you are overthinking what I said. No of course I'm not it was just so interesting to compare the two. It was when Ferdinand and Isabella took over and the way people of other faiths were treated as compared to their life under the Moors. We has the Spanish Inquisition under the Spanish Catholic monarchs, but under the Moors all faiths were equally respected.