An oath on British Values?

I missed the 'black' post. Daphne ,just read it, I do find it offensive to refer to people by the colour of their skin. i speak from experience in the sixties

I agree with you, Ana, "blacks" and "whites" sounds wrong, just as calling people with disabilities "the disabled" does. Mind you, terminology changes all the time - Sir Philip Craven, the President of the International Paralympic Committee, said on Desert Island Discs that he loathed the word disabilities and would describe himself as having an impairment.

I wouldn't use Twitter as a reference point as to what was acceptable - I agree with*Ana*- in fact I wouldn't use whites or blacks - I think I always say white people or black people - maybe on Twitter it's just to save characters?

OK, I accept that it's just me and my query was not justified.

I don't think I've suddenly come over all PC dahpnedill, but certain words or phrases do concern me sometimes.

Just checked because I wasn't sure if I was remembering correctly, but the term "whites" is commonly used, non-offensively as far as I can tell, on Twitter to mean white people so it seems reasonable for "blacks" to be used too.

@Ana

You seem to have become PC all of a sudden. Sorry, but they identify as blacks and are proud of their Nigerian heritage.

@ Washerwoman

I don't remember the thread and the search facility on here is so rubbish that I don't suppose I'd find it, so I'll address what I think you're asking.

Firstly, I come from Merseyside, my daughter lives in Manchester and my son in Leeds, so I don't think Northerners are xenophobic, bigoted yokels.

I live in Essex. The whole county voted Leave in the referendum and parts of the county are some of the most racist places I've ever known, despite the fact that there is historically a very low level of immigration. Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle are all in the North and all voted Remain, so I really don't think it's a North/South issue.

I posted a few weeks ago that I can understand why people in small enclaves of towns such as Rotherham or Bradford feel that their area has been taken over by immigrants and that the culture has changed. One MP (can't remember who) wrote that she knocked on the door of an elderly lady during the election, who said that she was concerned about immigration. She said that she was lonely, because she didn't feel that she had anything in common with her (mainly Asian) neighbours and she couldn't even go into the local shop for a chat, because the owners were Asian and often spoke a foreign language to each other. I really do sympathise with that and I don't know what the solution is. Immigrants will always tend to drift to certain areas of low cost housing, while the original inhabitants will move out, if they can afford it. I used to live in East London and it's very noticeable that's what happened with various communities over the years. It's all changing again, as some areas are becoming more fashionable and gentrified.

I've also posted in the past that I think that the North has been neglected by consecutive governments. I left Merseyside, because I couldn't find work. It's now known that the Thatcher government had wanted Merseyside to fade away and then Heseltine stepped in and something was done to improve it a bit. I think there's a desperate need to redistribute wealth and jobs in the country. The situation with housing in the South East is ridiculous and can't be sustained. When the industrial heartlands of the North were quite deliberately wound down, there should have been plans to regenerate them, but no government has ever been good at long-term planning. The EU was providing funding, which is why I believe that the people who would benefit most have shot themselves in the foot.

I think we forget that immigrants aren't all the same and, somehow or other, we conflate many different issues. There is the cultural problem when enclaves get 'taken over'. There is also the myth that 'immigrants take our jobs' - they don't, but when times are tough, it probably seems like that. The government could legislate to stamp down on practices such as gang masters and agencies recruiting at local rates. It could also support unions in enforcing the minimum wage.

The problems with schools and healthcare places could be solved if the government invested the income which immigrants generate. Immigration is being used as a scapegoat to divert attention form the real causes of shortages. In the case of schools, the shortages of places in schools which people want are caused by funding cuts and policies which don't allow schools to have surplus places. Local authorities now have no control and can't plan for future growth.

Sorry about the mini essay. I think the idea of an oath is naive and silly. It wouldn't even affect the British-born 'immigrants' and I can't see anybody really taking it seriously. I know people have to swear an oath when they become Australian citizens. To them it's just a formality when signing the papers.

PS. And, yes, I do think some people are racist and the danger is that this report will legitimise their 'Enoch Powell mentality'. I've already seen the reaction on some other sites :-(.

'Black people' perhaps? I really can't understand why you think it's fine to call a group of people 'blacks'.

Obviously I'm the one out of step here as no one else objected.

@ Ana

What would you like me to call them? The family I know doesn't mind calling itself black. It's a fact that there are very very few people with black skin in the town where I live. It's a small town and I know most of them.

My Godfather was RC, he died in 1985, was cremated and his ashes scattered . We attend a requiem Mass for him. His son, also RC died three years ago, cremation and requiem Mass for him too.

Mind you, some RC cemeteries are full of pictures of the beloved deceased and some graves look like small houses (not in this country as far as I know).

Jalima, yes she probably was out of date, I just took her word for it at the time (it was over 40 years ago).

Luckygirl the cross was just a completely plain one at the crematorium I went to last week.

Well, I don't think they need to be specific, just something similar to what I posted above which is the Australian one and encompasses what we expect from a country like ours:

Democracy, liberty and respect for the law

Ana your MIL is a bit out of date:
The Church dropped its prohibition of cremation in 1963. It now permits cremation only if that choice is not a reflection of doubt or disbelief about Catholic teachings about death, resurrection, and rebirth to eternal life. (Early Pagan cremations were seen as a denial of Christ's resurrection.)

a Catholic may be cremated, so long as the reason for doing so is not contrary to the Catholic faith—though the church does prefer a traditional burial (Code of Canon Law, 1176, Section 3). The remains are to be entombed or interred in a cemetery or columbarium, and are not to be scattered or rest in a person’s house or be split between several people or be fused into jewellery.

Luckygirl the crosses in question were not crucifixes. Just simple wooden crosses.

The Catholic Church has just changed it's mind but you have to have your ashes stored in the church and pay for the storage.

You can always trust the Church to cash in where it can.

The last thing you need to see in a crem is someone nailed to a cross and bleeding - give us a break.

Jalima, my former MIL, a devout Catholic, said that cremation was forbidden by the Catholic Church.

We don't seem to be able to agree what British values are on this thread so what would be in the oath?

There is no such thing as a native Briton. Peoples have moved into this land for thousands of years. Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, French, Irish to name but a few and all have brought their traditions and values.

British values (whatever they may be atm) have developed over the course of repeated waves of immigration. Surely we don't expect that they will remain the same forever. As the nation grows and develops our values will change too. In the seventies it was OK to call black people 'n' but now we see it as so insulting that I won't even write the word. Neither would we call Asians, Jews, Sikhs, Chinese etc. the names they were commonly known by. So if this oath to uphold British values had been required in the seventies that oath would have meant something totally different to our current values. So what is the point of such an oath?

Elegran

and Washerwoman I hope he has learnt that other countries have different values and expectations.
Interesting that he was Kosovan, we know a Serbian Muslim, people do forget that not all are from the Middle or Far East or the sub-Continent.

I'm a bear of little brain, Jalima but I do occasionally have my own light-bulb moments. It looks as though Bath crem, for one, saw the same lightbulb. Perhaps others have too.

Hi Jalima.I think the vast majority of second,third,even fourth generation of Muslim women do share our outlook on life and liberty but high profile cases like the dreadful honour killing of Samia Shahid from Bradford sadly show those choices and freedoms are still being repressed in the more fundemental families,and that integration into British culture is deliberately avoided.
Interestingly another first hand experience of the deeply patriarchal mindset was when we offered to host a Kosovan Muslim student for several months so he could study at our local 6th form college to increase his chances of studying medicine.It was my daughters idea, and her sisters totally embraced it.Our eldest offered up her room as she was away at uni .It was an interesting experience, and maybe we were a bit naive and wasn't a total disaster.But he was an arrogant young man,and really very misogynistic and his attitude towards our bright,hard working girls frankly patronising.We made allowances, he had no doubt been through some very tough times.But just the way he spoke of his sisters back home,and his familiy's expectations for them made me aware of cultural divides like never before.
I can't stress enough this is NOT a generalisation about Muslims,but DJ asked why Dame Casey's had paid attention to their integration in particular and it's because in ghetto type pockets of their communities there has been little progress,indeed almost backward steps.Let's welcome this report and acknowledge the fantastic work many of the community leaders do to break down dIvisions within their own culture and try to remain hopeful.

Elegran's suggestion seems very sensible, an interchangeable faith room.
Did you google that suggestion Elegran or did you think of it all by yourself?

There was a very large cross on the wall at the crematorium I went to in Bristol last week, but there are several rooms, perhaps other rooms don't have any religious symbols.

daphnedill the service was C of E, conducted by a vicar. I have been to secular, humanist and C of E services in crematoria.

Anyway - I thought that cremation was forbidden in Islam but that the Christian faith and Jewish faith permit it?

- democracy
- the rule of law
- individual liberty
- mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith

I think that is very reasonable and wide-ranging enough for anyone who wants to live here.

Bath, Torbay, Accrington and others - quite a few if you Google it Elegran. Crosses have been permanently removed 'in case they offend those of other religions'.

I didn't notice when I went to a funeral in Torbay, but it was a secular funeral.

People who do want a Christian funeral service can still have one in the church of their choice.

durhamjen Apologies. Wrong person.