An oath on British Values?

Oh how I haven't missed those endless links...

I've bought some cards from www.radicalteatowel.com which are to all our friends in Europe. They still wish a Merry Christmas, from the 48%.....wishing we were there. I know we still are at the moment, but will not be soon.

No, it wasn't tongue in cheek, Ana. There really are hardly any blacks in the town where I live - maybe a couple of dozen at most. I know one of the families, because I tutored the children and they are very strict Christians. All the children get up early on Sunday to go to church, have to read the bible daily and belong to the church choir. Whenever I see pictures of the choir in the paper, about a third of the members are black (including the family I know). I recognise some of the other singers and I know they're originally from Nigeria too.

@ annie There are still far more Christians in the UK than there are Muslims - and many people who want Christian baptisms, marriages and funerals without necessarily being believers.

Thank you for your reply earlier Daphnedill. Some time ago I tried to get an answer from you when you posted a statement saying some places were negative to all things foreign,and I asked where in your oppinion that may be you disappeared off the thread and I never found out, but never mind now and in hindsight I must confess I wanted to know because I was annoyed at the time as I suspected living in a northern, Leave voting area we were all being lumped together as zenophobic bigots.And as my post today tried to convey most people are far more tolerant than they are given credit for,just as most of our Muslim communities are moderate and proud to be British.There are so many variables really aren't there?And yes I agree I would hope Dame Casey's report leads to genuine consideration of what can be better done to assist integration,rather than fuelling the small minority who are racist.

That's an unusual hobby, daphne, looking inside crematoria.
Dare I ask why.

daphnedill, crematoriums/ia are not just for secular funerals. The service can be of any religion or none.

I find it odd and rather offensive that you so casually refer to 'blacks' daphnedill.

Oh for goodness sake DJ those cards!Our dear friends from Ireland have just stayed with us,and my daughters about to visit her girlfriends family in Italy,where she gets a very warm welcome.Both families know we voted Leave and totally respect why, but the inference is that as a Remain voter only you can like or respect anyone another European country.Who's being divisive now!

Anyone from another European country I meant.Bah humbug.Off to eat my dinner.

We got on fine with people in Europe before the EU and nothing has changed.

.durhamjen as there are hardly any blacks from anywhere in this town and you don't have a passport so don't travel, all your opinions aren't from personnel observations but what you read?

Washerwoman that is a very insightful and interesting post.

We used to live in an area of London where there seemed to be full integration and respect for each other's beliefs. Some families were Indian and others were Ugandan Asian but all modern in their outlook and their ideals and aims were the same as for all of us - to earn a living, provide for our children and for our children to receive a good education for their future. However, I think the difference between that and another nearby borough where women seemed to be downtrodden and subservient (many of them worked where DH worked so he had first-hand experience of that) was, I think, education and cultural expectations. I would have hoped that the children of these women, being educated in this country, would have a different outlook on life and liberty, but your post does not fill me with optimism that this is happening.

What are you on about, petra? I never said anything about blacks.

Washerwoman, I will only send them to my EU friends and relatives who think we are mad to leave. I won't send one to anyone I might offend. I have lots of others.
The point, which you so plainly missed, was that even those say Merry Christmas.

.daphne, the church doesn't carry out cremations

Bath, Torbay, Accrington and others - quite a few if you Google it Elegran. Crosses have been permanently removed 'in case they offend those of other religions'.

Ana, I went on the Bath Crematorium website. Crosses have not been removed but they are 'removable' so that the chapels can be used by people of any or no faith.

'The chapel
Haycombe crematorium chapel seats 75 people, but the burial (or Top) chapel seats 140, with much more standing room. Use of the burial chapel is availablefor ahalf hour service free of charge, in addtion to the crematorium slot. This istoencourage its use for larger funerals or where a longer service time is required.
Haycombe provides a service to people of all faiths and beliefs, and our facilities are designed to be accessible to everyone.
There is disabled access to both the crematorium and burial (Top) chapels.
Both are fitted with loop systems (as is the main office).
Both have a wheelchair available on request.
There are large print editions of hymn books and service books.
Disable toilets and public toilets are adjacent to both chapels.
All crosses are removable'

forgot to add the link
www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/births-marriages-and-deaths/burials-and-cremations/cremations

thatbags Mon 05-Dec-16 13:51:41
I think that is perfectly reasonable and other countries adopt that attitude.
Hence my reiteration of the Australian oath of citizenship, which may or may not include God as decided by the partaker of the oath.

Well thanks for checking up on that vampirequeen. The information I'd got from Google was obviously out of date.

durhamjen Apologies. Wrong person.

- democracy
- the rule of law
- individual liberty
- mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith

I think that is very reasonable and wide-ranging enough for anyone who wants to live here.

Bath, Torbay, Accrington and others - quite a few if you Google it Elegran. Crosses have been permanently removed 'in case they offend those of other religions'.

I didn't notice when I went to a funeral in Torbay, but it was a secular funeral.

People who do want a Christian funeral service can still have one in the church of their choice.

Elegran's suggestion seems very sensible, an interchangeable faith room.
Did you google that suggestion Elegran or did you think of it all by yourself?

There was a very large cross on the wall at the crematorium I went to in Bristol last week, but there are several rooms, perhaps other rooms don't have any religious symbols.

daphnedill the service was C of E, conducted by a vicar. I have been to secular, humanist and C of E services in crematoria.

Anyway - I thought that cremation was forbidden in Islam but that the Christian faith and Jewish faith permit it?

Hi Jalima.I think the vast majority of second,third,even fourth generation of Muslim women do share our outlook on life and liberty but high profile cases like the dreadful honour killing of Samia Shahid from Bradford sadly show those choices and freedoms are still being repressed in the more fundemental families,and that integration into British culture is deliberately avoided.
Interestingly another first hand experience of the deeply patriarchal mindset was when we offered to host a Kosovan Muslim student for several months so he could study at our local 6th form college to increase his chances of studying medicine.It was my daughters idea, and her sisters totally embraced it.Our eldest offered up her room as she was away at uni .It was an interesting experience, and maybe we were a bit naive and wasn't a total disaster.But he was an arrogant young man,and really very misogynistic and his attitude towards our bright,hard working girls frankly patronising.We made allowances, he had no doubt been through some very tough times.But just the way he spoke of his sisters back home,and his familiy's expectations for them made me aware of cultural divides like never before.
I can't stress enough this is NOT a generalisation about Muslims,but DJ asked why Dame Casey's had paid attention to their integration in particular and it's because in ghetto type pockets of their communities there has been little progress,indeed almost backward steps.Let's welcome this report and acknowledge the fantastic work many of the community leaders do to break down dIvisions within their own culture and try to remain hopeful.

I'm a bear of little brain, Jalima but I do occasionally have my own light-bulb moments. It looks as though Bath crem, for one, saw the same lightbulb. Perhaps others have too.

Elegran

and Washerwoman I hope he has learnt that other countries have different values and expectations.
Interesting that he was Kosovan, we know a Serbian Muslim, people do forget that not all are from the Middle or Far East or the sub-Continent.

We don't seem to be able to agree what British values are on this thread so what would be in the oath?

There is no such thing as a native Briton. Peoples have moved into this land for thousands of years. Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, French, Irish to name but a few and all have brought their traditions and values.

British values (whatever they may be atm) have developed over the course of repeated waves of immigration. Surely we don't expect that they will remain the same forever. As the nation grows and develops our values will change too. In the seventies it was OK to call black people 'n' but now we see it as so insulting that I won't even write the word. Neither would we call Asians, Jews, Sikhs, Chinese etc. the names they were commonly known by. So if this oath to uphold British values had been required in the seventies that oath would have meant something totally different to our current values. So what is the point of such an oath?