NHS winter crisis looms

The best GP I have ever had was from Romania. She had trained as a doctor in Romania, but her qualification wasn't accepted by the NHS. Therefore, she started from scratch when she came to the UK. Originally, her work visa was as a healthcare assistant in a hospital, but she got into Cambridge to study medicine, which she did. She came to my GP practice as part of her GP training and I was almost in tears when she went. I have never known a GP to be so knowledgeable and genuinely caring.

"The best GP I have ever had was from Romania."

I daresay the fact that she did her degree twice, the second time at our top university was a factor.

What a shame Cambridge gave a much sought after place to her though rather than one of our own nationals . Some countries reserve medical school places for citizens only.

I can't believe Mair's last post.

Where are you going to find the money to train them, roses?

I know this is addressed to Roses but here is my view:

Well if poor countries like Romania and Ukraine can train doctors I fail to see why we cant?

We should start by reserving all medical school places for our own citizens. We have opened more medical schools but I also suggest expanding the shortened four year Graduate medical course and providing loans to enable mature students to retrain.

How long will it be before the newly trained doctors and nurses will be able to work? It takes ten years to train a doctor for a specialism, which won't solve the current problems

You are right about this, and we should import doctors for hard to fill roles on fixed term contracts in the meantime, without the right to permanent settlement. They should preferably be from Australia as a) they speak English as a mother tongue b) they are usually not seeking permanent settlement c) their universities are mostly low on corruption and train to a high standard.

Neither can I, Jane10.

Cambridge awards places on merit and produced an outstanding GP, to whom I am eternally grateful.

Why Jane10?
If it was your grandchild wanting to be a doctor, with 4A* at A level and turned own for a place at Cambridge, I suspect you feel differently.

Why do you think this much sought after place is better given to a Romanian who could have stayed in Romania and worked as a doctor there?

What a waste! We and Romania could both have benefitted by having a doctor!

The NHS for a long time now has been taking doctors /surgeons from abroad because it's a cheaper option than training up our own medical students, the same applies to GP's.
Yes, it will take ten years, even if we start right now, but it's still a good idea to do it.

The NHS is underfunded.

I can't be bothered discussing anything with you any more, Mair. Your arguments aren't consistent, rational or informed and I don't like the xenophobic tone of your posts.

Why on earth would these temporarily imported doctors want to come here to cover our shortfall then be told to push off home once they're not needed.
Starred A levels are all very well but are no substitute for the right temperament for a doctor. That Romanian doctor must have influenced hundreds of people on her way to practice. Her determination alone is a lesson to potential students. If your GC can't get into Cambridge perhaps s/he could train elsewhere. Romania perhaps? Its a 2 way street.

I don't see why we can't train more here AND import as well.It is good for doctors and surgeons and GP's from abroad to be here for a while, they want to, they don't always want to live here forever though.Therefore more home grown ones, who will live here forever would be a very good thing.

In all honesty Jane I can't see many UK medical students really preferring to live and train in Romania.

Yes of course it would be good to train and retain more UK doctors. I was just cross at Mair's post. Our students may not fancy training abroad but its an option open to them. Travel broadens the mind...

Why not, roses?

They're not all heathens, you know.

But I thought that the Romanian training wasn't acceptable in the UK, so not much point qualifying over there if you have to do it all again in the UK...

jane not everyone's mind

When my brother went to medical school over forty years ago, there was already a shortage of GPs being talked about. Seems none of our governments have been good at forward planning.

Agreed thatbags and high time that they became good at it.

Watching last nights television programme about the NHS the lack of doctors wasn't the issue but the shortage of beds - it was absolutely chronic.

Remind me - how many beds has this government got rid of since 2010?

You should watch 'Ambulance' a BBC series and '999 What's Your Emergency' which was aired on Channel 4.

They are an eye opener and not only show the stress and strain but the waste of productive emergency care the NHS has to deal with.

So many hospital closures and bed number reductions. I remember being at meetings and hearing that we'll not need so many beds and feeling like a one man awkward squad saying 'why not? The population is rising and so is the number of over 65s' and being laughed at. Well, as we say in Scotland -they ken noo!

"Why on earth would these temporarily imported doctors want to come here to cover our shortfall then be told to push off home once they're not needed"
Same reasons many Brits work abroad for a few years and then come home, same reasons Ozzies Kiwis and many Western Europeans come here of course:
a) Travel and the experience of living in another country
b) To enhance their CV (a spell in a British hospital gains many brownie points for a doctor from a Third World country)
c) More money than they earn at home
d) To polish their English.

Many countries such as Singapore and Dubai even the USA employ foreign experts on this basis. Why do you think Britain isnt entitled to do the same?

What on earth do all your posts about the EU have to do with the crises in the NHS mair

As I said Mair its a 2 way street. Your GCs could gain exactly the same benefits by training and working other than in the UK.

"Yes of course it would be good to train and retain more UK doctors"

Glad you agree

"I was just cross at Mair's post."
Why? Its a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

"Our students may not fancy training abroad but its an option open to them."
It should be exactly that an option, for those who want it! The fifth biggest economy in the world should not be forcing its own students to go abroad to study as if we are a Third World country!
Is this the future you want for yru granndchildren?

"Travel broadens the mind".

Arguable! It is not a proven fact, nor is the definition of what constitutes a 'broadened mind'.

However we are not talking about 'travel'. Leaving home for the first time is quite a challenging enough experience for most eighteen year olds anyway, without having to simultaneously cope with all the extra challenges, and costs, of studying abroad. Most overseas undergrads in this country do not come here at eighteen fresh out of school, many are a little older, have often worked, and many have relatives livign here who they live with.

Forcing medical students to study abroad also disadvantages poorer working class student most, those who are more likely to choose a university close to home, and whose parents are least able to help with additional costs or bail them out financially if they get into trouble. They are also less likely to have parents knowledgeable about the differences good and bad livign in the target country presents.

Your comment is I am afraid very ill thought out.

"What on earth do all your posts about the EU have to do with the crises in the NHS mair"

Its because we are discussing Doctor shortages and foreign doctors.
It is relevant.