The cost of Brexit for us; the ordinary people

"How wonderful it is to see you back yet again on GN with your ready sarcasm, GracesGran."

Sarcasm is an easy word to grab at when the paucity of an argument is exposed Ana. Attacking the person - now who just did that?

You say "Without immigration we would soon have a gently shrinking population as Germany and many other EU countries have" without seeming to have any insight into the challenges this is causing in Germany. Germany's shrinking population is giving far more problems than ours but it is shrinking in exactly the same way - the birth-rate is dropping.

That is because a falling ageing population is a very big subject which would certainly merit its own thread. I am happy to discuss it with you if you wish to start one, but it would not be appropriate to diverge into it here IMO.

So, when you send the Japanese scientist researching dementia 'back' and the IT guy from India and the Engineer from Eastern Europe who are you going to replace them with. Perhaps you see this as jobs for the 70 or 80 year olds of whom we have so many.
Another red herring.
Who is talking of sending back highly skilled immigrants already working here? Certainly not UKIP certainly not me.
The vast majority of immigrants do not fall into this category they are unskilled or low skilled many non EU barely literate, some not even working.

Do you work in or have you worked in teaching or the NHS by the way because I am sure if you did, or you had relatives that did, you would be very aware that these areas are teetering on the brink of collapse and not employing people from other counties - well I just don't believe it will happen

Yes to both.
You choose to ignore the fact that immigrants are also putting HUGE pressure on schools and on the NHS, particularly in cities.

"Your opinion on euthanasia was that an uncaring and incompetent government in the near future would relax laws on it, simply to get rid of them ( pure nonsense) but I was pointing out that some people may be glad of it."

Now is that slander or deformation as I said nothing of the sort. I did not call the government uncaring and my comment on incompetence did not relate to euthanasia but to the tendency of government to misdirect people's anger. I know you were pointing out that some people may be glad to see that relaxation but I had not commented as to whether I thought it a good thing or not so it may be better to read what is actually written before you attack the person writing it.

"Oh dear Graces Gran back to your usual insults I see."

If I have, in error, insulted anyone, please feel free to report me. I am sure GN will soon make a decision about it. I feel I have merely called to account opinions not backed by fact and commented on how stuck in an old argument this sort of discussion is.

"you certainly sound very teacher like" What on earth is sounding teacher-like? There is such a variety in teachers I am not sure what that can possibly mean but I am going to take it as a compliment and assume that it shows I try to be knowledgeable about a subject before I throw out opinions and that I try to present them as a proper discussion - about the idea not the person.

"The fact that Djen judges statements on the basis of 'the company that they keep' fallacy does underline the lack of logic in her thinking."

Do, rather than just offering an opinion, explain why the thinking is illogical Mair. I am sure we will all be holding our breath to see you put some real fact together.

"Remoaner is of course a tease, but since it is directed narrowly at those anti democrats who wish to overturn the democratic vote or impose a very very soft Brexit with continued open borders, and NOT at "remainers" who accept the outcome of the referendum, I think its permissable to adopt a distinctive designation, dont you?~

A tease? Did the person agree to being teased otherwise it is a form of bullying.

The only democratic vote that was taken was to advise the Government that we should leave the Union. This is happening so I cannot see why you think anyone is being anti-democratic. I see you - not me - are using the word Brexit again. That day is dead, it has gone; the only discussion is about what will actually and pragmatically happen.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/gps-from-eu-rethinking-move-to-uk-because-of-brexit-recruiter-warns/20033196.article

www.bma.org.uk/connecting-doctors/b/work/posts/this-is-home-but-does-home-still-want-its-european-doctors

You should see Ana in action with an improper reply
(As someone said in the movies "you ain't seen nothin yet!)

Sorry, Ana couldn't resist

"So Brexiter is OK but Remainer is not???
Waht alternative designation do you suggest?"

I do not use the word 'Brexiter' Mair unless I am quoting or making a particular point about the word. I would not dream of calling anyone that it over values their position. We, as a country, have decided to leave the Union so I will talk about that. It is noticeable that those who see themselves as a group apart are continuing to call themselves that rather than just getting on with what needs to be done, rather as if they are stuck.

How wonderful it is to see you back yet again on GN with your ready sarcasm, GracesGran.

Oh dear Graces Gran back to your usual insults I see.

as is usually the case, they will probably swing to some extreme which actually blames the aging population so I would expect laws on euthanasia of (or?) cuts in pensions. They will blame us for exactly the same reason that some in government try to blame immigrants; to deflect criticism of their own incompetency

This bit? (11.29)

Your opinion on euthanasia was that an uncaring and incompetent government in the near future would relax laws on it, simply to get rid of them ( pure nonsense) but I was pointing out that some people may be glad of it.
I asked about being a teacher as you asked Mair if she had knowledge of it.....and you certainly sound very teacher like.I have no real interest in your past jobs though.
No idea what your last comment means...very odd.

"roses, it's because they are so sure they alone are right, and can't understand why saying the same things over and over again doesn't convince the rest of us..."

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.

Eleanor Roosevelt

fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/

fullfact.org/health/eu-staff-great-ormond-street-hospital/

"Yes, much easier than having to reply properly isn't it?"

So is this an example of a 'proper reply' Ana. We must all learn from your example.

"I think that too many people have worked themselves up into a state of anxiety over Brexit, one would almost say hysteria sometimes."

Really roses? You are still talking about the long past "Brexit", others are talking about the future and where we are going now. I would ask who has actually got themselves worked up.

Did I give an opinion on euthanasia rosesarered? Always worth actually reading what was written.

It doesn't matter how I voted as we are now moving forward from that, except for the few who feel it was their single day of victory and want to keep rerunning it. That certainly does not include all who voted to leave but just a very small proportion in my experience. No, I was not a teacher.

I must be careful, from experience, about people who ask personal questions mustn't I. They have turned out to be not what they seem in the past I seem to remember.

Grace Gran
I am surprised to see the name calling of 'remainers' or 'remoners' is still going on. Is the equally childish one that puts 'sh' between the 'x' and the 'i' of Brexiters which I have seen in other social media being thrown back in the other direction or are the infantile remarks only going in one direction?

So Brexiter is OK but Remainer is not???
Waht alternative designation do you suggest?

Remoaner is of course a tease, but since it is directed narrowly at those anti democrats who wish to overturn the democratic vote or impose a very very soft Brexit with continued open borders, and NOT at "remainers" who accept the outcome of the referendum, I think its permissable to adopt a distinctive designation, dont you?
I can think of many harsher.

djen credibility does not rely on one particular like/dislike.Or maybe it does with you, I don't know.The fact that you think Corbyn is fantastic, may make me doubt your judgement, but does not mean that everything you say on any subject is clouded.

The fact that Djen judges statements on the basis of 'the company that they keep' fallacy does underline the lack of logic in her thinking. But I think we knew that anyway.

Anyway Djen I think you do need to chill a bit. I can see that youre very stressed out lest your European DILs, as a consequence of Brexit, just might perhaps be tempted to go back home, taking your precious DSs and GCs with them , but I do think youre blowing this very small risk out of all proportion, and lashing out unreasonably at Brexiters as a consequence.

Would you be happy to share with us which countries they hail from?

djen credibility does not rely on one particular like/dislike.Or maybe it does with you, I don't know.The fact that you think Corbyn is fantastic, may make me doubt your judgement, but does not mean that everything you say on any subject is clouded.

roses, it's because they are so sure they alone are right, and can't understand why saying the same things over and over again doesn't convince the rest of us...

Durham
By the way, Mair, over half the doctors are talking about going abroad in the next five years. Proof on onmedica. That's slightly more than a few hundred.

"Talking about". ROFL
You clearly dont realise that they registered enquiries purely to try to put pressure on Jeremy Hunt during the strikes. An enquiry is very different to going! LOL Few will leave.

*Nursing applications down 10%
Medical applications down 4%.*

Really doesnt matter. Medicine is the most competitive courses to get on in the UK (after veterinary medicine - a small niche). There is absolutely no shortage of people wanting to be doctors or to work in the NHS.

www.concentra.co.uk/blog/most-competitive-university-courses-which-courses-are-the-hardest-to-get-onto

Nursing is also popular, slightly less so as a consequence of ending the bursary which pays their fees, but still plenty of applicants. We need to open more courses and the students will come.
The issue with nursing isnt finding students its keeping nurses in the profession after they have kids.

Not looking good at all. There used to be lots of foreign and homegrown people wanting to study here. Not any more

Again more nonsense from you Durham.

Yes, much easier than having to reply properly isn't it?

I think that too many people have worked themselves up into a state of anxiety over Brexit, one would almost say hysteria sometimes.

Oh well, that's the rest of your credibility gone, Mair, if you think Katie Hopkins is fantastic. Another one to ignore.