The cost of Brexit for us; the ordinary people

Oh dear, GracesGran a bit of a doom fuelled scenario ( did you vote Remain by any chance?) and were you a teacher?
Actually quite a few people would like laws on euthanasia relaxed, living in a pain wrapped bubble as they are. Can't see any government coming round and collecting up any over 70's though.

Mair I think you are my sister

Niggly Nellie and Petra

I can see Durham has worked herself up into a serious anxiety state over Brexit. I would put her firmly into the "Bremoaner" category coined by the fantastic Katie Hopkins (I'm listening to her on LBC as I type).

However I say , though not with a feeling of some guilt, that I feel no pity for these people as I know how they would be gloating and sneering at us Brexit voters had they won! There would be no talk then of concern for non divisiveness, it would be 'put up and shut up' which is exactly the attitude they've adopted during the last two decades of uncontrolled mass immigration.

I am surprised to see the name calling of 'remainers' or 'remoners' is still going on. Is the equally childish one that puts 'sh' between the 'x' and the 'i' of Brexiters which I have seen in other social media being thrown back in the other direction or are the infantile remarks only going in one direction?

We have decided to extract our country from the Union we have belonged to, in one form or another, for over 40 years. The change was never going to be easy.

Mair, it is interesting to see you asking Jen for evidence when you offer none to back your own opinions. Although you say that I was "right about the risk of disappearing jobs" you correlate this with immigration saying " There is absolutely no benefit in bringing in immigrants to work if we wont have the jobs for them." But I had not mentioned immigrants. As I am sure you are aware correlation does not prove causation and the link between immigration and any lack of jobs (which the government keeps telling us doesn't exist) is poor at best.

You say "Without immigration we would soon have a gently shrinking population as Germany and many other EU countries have" without seeming to have any insight into the challenges this is causing in Germany. Germany's shrinking population is giving far more problems than ours but it is shrinking in exactly the same way - the birth-rate is dropping. So, when you send the Japanese scientist researching dementia 'back' and the IT guy from India and the Engineer from Eastern Europe who are you going to replace them with. Perhaps you see this as jobs for the 70 or 80 year olds of whom we have so many.

Do you work in or have you worked in teaching or the NHS by the way because I am sure if you did, or you had relatives that did, you would be very aware that these areas are teetering on the brink of collapse and not employing people from other counties - well I just don't believe it will happen.

As I said, I totally believe we will begin to disentangle ourselves from the EU but I also believe that any government will want the outcomes to appeal to the majority. That is not the 10% that want us to stay in the union, as it is and head for further federalisation but nor will they try and appeal to the 10% who want to stop all immigration and think that in some way we can return to the 1950s. They will need to allow the economy to work and the issues with the economy are not caused by immigration. One of the biggest causes is the aging population. We, annoyingly to those who would like to ignore it, are living for longer but living at much more expense to the economy as we live with complex issues. It will be much more interesting - and has nothing to do with leaving the EU - to see what our government says about dealing with the challenges caused in this area. Currently they seem afraid to say much and I expect, in the near future, as is usually the case, they will probably swing to some extreme which actually blames the aging population so I would expect laws on euthanasia of cuts in pensions. They will blame us for exactly the same reason that some in government try to blame immigrants; to deflect criticism of their own incompetency.

Sorry, when were Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand poverty riven hellholes?

Doctors and nurses from these countries have always come here for a few years and then gone home. Brexit far from having a negative effect on them will mean it will be easier to recruit from these countries on a points based system. The NHS used to recruit Australian pharmacists who mostly came for a few years and then went back, but was prevented from doing so by the government because of the huge surge in EU pharmacists who are inappropriately experienced, because they basically do not have hospital clinical pharmacists on the continent, and also do not have near native English.

A doctor in India would not go back to poverty. Neither would one in Nigeria. They would earn a lot more respect than they get here.
Yet they are still desperate to come here. You show little understanding of the motivation of immigrants. People in corrupt unstable poverty stricken disease wracked countries generally prefer to live in stable law abiding safe countries, and among stable law abiding countries Britain is the most sought after destination in Europe. People come here to build a better life for their families, they earn more and gain a lot more status on their numerous trips home too!

What planet are you on?
And you call me "rude!!!

Lots of evidence. I'll let you look for it, though, as you are so rude. People do get fed up of my link

So no actual evidence then, thought not, just claims made on blogs by globalist bigots!

If this happens, Mair will find out just how much we need foreign workers in this country.

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/12/28/one-day-without-us-we-ll-show-britain-how-much-value-migrant

Not true, petra. I was just worried that Mair was losing control of her arguments. Maybe I've been watching too much Harry Potter. All she's doing is accusing without any proof, as she accuses me of doing.

By the way, Mair, over half the doctors are talking about going abroad in the next five years. Proof on onmedica. That's slightly more than a few hundred.
Nursing applications down 10%
Medical applications down 4%.
Not looking good at all. There used to be lots of foreign and homegrown people wanting to study here. Not any more.

* Mair* And she has been known to ask other posters if they ^feeling well* as to infer that they're off their rocker to have the audacity to disagree with her.

Mair, on here dj is ALWAYS right, no matter what! Just thought you needed to know!!!

It takes seven years to train a new doctor. I am not at all reluctant to give them training. Where did you get that idea from?
You are becoming more and more weird in your accusations. Are you feeling well?

Why on earth would NON EU immigrants choose to go back to their poverty riven hell hole homelands which most were desperate to leave (and many chose medicine as a career purely because it offered an exit route)? The idea is risible.

Sorry, when were Canada, the US, Australia and New Zealand poverty riven hellholes? A doctor in India would not go back to poverty. Neither would one in Nigeria. They would earn a lot more respect than they get here.
What planet are you on?
Lots of evidence. I'll let you look for it, though, as you are so rude. People do get fed up of my links.

The NHS and education, etc., would have problems without the 3 million already here. *Many of them are leaving because of the fear that Brexit has produced.

Any evidence for this Durham or are you just making it up?
The last I heard was that the ONS quarterly figures showed increased immigration from the EU post referendum.
The (alleged) high levels of anxiety among EUers about their future here also contradicts this nonsense.

Many doctors and nurses are from non-EU countries, and are also wanting to return home because of the attitude in this country to immigrants since the Brexit vote.

Again I doubt youve a shred of evidence.

Why on earth would NON EU immigrants choose to go back to their poverty riven hell hole homelands which most were desperate to leave (and many chose medicine as a career purely because it offered an exit route)? The idea is risible.

If a few hundred left even, so what? Hundreds of thousands of foreign doctors and nurses would give their eye teeth to replace them!
And do not forget we can train more of our own, reluctant as you may be to give training and good jobs to young Brits.

Difficult to predict the effect of technology on employment. There have been robots on car production lines for decades but JLR and Nissan are still employing lots of people. When I was growing up in the 50s there were probably only a few tens of academics working in computing and now it is an industry that continues to grow. We do not produce anything like the number of programmers that we need in this country and the industry needs a very high percentage of immigrants.
At the end of the 19th century there were huge numbers of men employed in dangerous labour-intensive industrial work, but only few women were employed. (If married they were busily producing 8 or more kids). What I do not observe is lots of EU immigrants in areas where there are few jobs! I live in such an area and am told that there are some Romanians employed in a chicken processing factory. There are probably a handful working in various kitchens. But in the poorest local towns you'd have search quite hard to find any.

Oh dear! Oh dear!

No wonder Mair tried to undermine my link. It's not a 'Remainer' or even a 'Remoaner' site, Mair. It was established long before the referendum. It's currently got publication of the UKIP fraud allegations on hold until they can be confirmed.

No wonder Farage is cosying up to Trump. Let's just hope that people finally see him for what he is.

I see Nuttall is in the allegations. He's already been found out for 'embellishing' his CV. Hopefully the Labour voters he's targeting, because they are fed up with dishonest Westminster politics, will see this sham merchant for what he is.

Oh yes, Farage is most definitely hypocrite of the year. One German newspaper calls him 'Arschloch des Jahres'!

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

The NHS and education, etc., would have problems without the 3 million already here. Many of them are leaving because of the fear that Brexit has produced.
5% of the UK population come from other EU countries, and over 70% of those have jobs.
Send them home, either literally or by scaring them, and we'll have problems.
Many doctors and nurses are from non-EU countries, and are also wanting to return home because of the attitude in this country to immigrants since the Brexit vote.

Youre very right about the risk of disappearing jobs GGran but of course this is all the more reason to call a halt to mass immigration. There is absolutely no benefit in bringing in immigrants to work if we wont have the jobs for them.

Without immigration we would soon have a gently shrinking population as Germany and many other EU countries have and thus would b far better placed to face these new challenges that will occur in the coming decades.

Cunco, I would agree that the impact of robots will probably hit the lower end of the wage scale and, in some cases, completely replace the worker. However, the impact of AI is much more likely to hit middle income jobs. For instance, middle ranking solicitors are already concerned and we are likely to see the mid ranking bank jobs continue to disappear. Think of a mid-income job and it is probably one that will be replaced. This could lead to the hollowing out of the available jobs with some low skilled ones remaining and some very highly skilled ones requiring a very high level of education which may not be available to all.

I think that where automation or the use of AI (or both) is possible it will happen. In the long run it is cheaper for the employer - although not for the state. The problem may not be the drop in income currently blamed by some on the EU (and they may be right in some cases but this has been grossly exaggerated) but the diminishing need for human labour.

Some new jobs could/will be created of course but just wishing and not planning (as usually applies in our short-term political system) is going to lead to job disruption and insecurity and I can see the proportion who did vote out because they thought they would get jobs 'back' and secure wages they could live on and bring up a family may be so disappointed that could turn on those they see as bringing this about yet again - and this could be the very people they chose to believe in the referendum.

"Mair is the Welsh form of Mary."

Indeed to goodness it is.

Sorry Durham mixing you up with daphne - both 'd' you see,
(and similar views it would seem)

Poster clone confusion!

No I didn't, Mair.

Mair is the Welsh form of Mary

POGS, yes, it has already been pointed out to daphnedill that her post about Mair's username was out of order, but she seems determined not to respond.

Durham said to Petra
Sp glad that your father was proved totally and utterly wrong!! grin The UK is nowhere near becoming a police state, despite the conspiracy theorists.

Sadly thats far from the case, cctv cameras everywhere, mobiles tracking us, GCHQ recording our internet activity, laws restricting what we can say (even online) and people being banged up simply for saying rude things about people, at the same time our borders so out of control that people actually WANT ID cards as a desperate measure to enable the government to control the drawbridge and track those who threaten us. Government dictating to teachers how to brainwash our children in schools and the EU sticking its oar in where it can, promoting itself. Foster parents being denied the right to care for kids because their politics contradict the party line.Schoolkids being interviewed by police for wanting to sit with their friends not a group of immigrant kids who are not their friends.

Not in a month of Sundays could Petras dad back in the 70s have ever imagined that such repression could come about in Britain.

Sorry, daphne, hadn't realised the link didn't work. Friends arrived just after I'd put it on.
It's actually 20 million euros. The one you mentioned where it has been proven was not paid before 23rd December.

skwalker1964.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/ukip-eu-allegations3.pdf

This one should work.

'And did you choose the surname of Jo Cox's cowardly murderer as your username deliberately?'

Given Mair is not an unusual name it begs the question what was the 'deliberate' intention behind the question.