The cost of Brexit for us; the ordinary people

What I can't understand is why article 50 was ever incorporated into EU law in the first place. Why on earth have a get out clause if you never intend for anyone to use it, or make it so difficult and unpleasant as to make it virtually impossible? Again if this institution is so benevolent and all embracing why would anyone want to leave? Could it possibly be arrogance, token democracy? For certain they don't respect ours, the genuine article I mean!!

That's an odd interpretation ofwhat I said, Jalima. I wasn't referring to UK Remainers at all. Just Greece & Switzerland.

Daphne, it was not I who called them pack, you must have missed some posts

nelly,

I don't think it's article 50 that's making get out difficult. It's the unravelling of the laws and trade agreements, the fact that there is no plan as to which shade of Brexit is best, and how to counter the possible serious economic consequences of leaving that is causing difficulty

Cold shouldering Mrs May isn't going to help though. Surely better to accept that a member of the club wishes to leave as they are obviously entitled to do else why have article 50? and come to an amicable agreement in everyone's interest?!

I don't find it odd; presumably you voted remain (as I did) and state that certain aspects of the EU are found to be distasteful.

You didn't say you disagreed with Switzerland in that view

I expect Theresa May knew there would be a chilly reception ( from Junker , who is a rude person anyway) and others.They must be in bits because we are leaving.
The sooner it happens the better.

SWitzerland has had to give in today - after the vote to limit immigration in Feb 2014 and nearly two years of constant negotiations with the EU - they have had to agree that the EU would NOT give in about the basic principle of free movement of people - and that the damage done to Switzerland if they left access to the single market would be catastrophic.

Of course the UDC/SVP, the far right party that requested the Referendum which was accepted by a very thin majority, and basically only by the German speaking part- are now going ape and stirring again for a second Referendum. Difficult times ahead, and as in the UK, massive division showing between different parts of the country- my part Romandie (French) together with Basel which has a strong French cultural background despite being German speaking- being at logger heads with the German part- especially the very tradtional and rural central parts.

For Fudge sake ... I am sick of it all.

I think we all are.

I really do think that the EU has to take a long hard look at itself too though, because there are a lot of people in many countries who are dissatisfied with the whole setup and if they are not careful it is all going to implode in a few years' time.

What started out with the best of intentions is becoming too cumbersome and autocratic to be able to encompass the needs of all Europeans.

The bureaucrats need to start listening and not become more intransigent.

Poor old Switzerland! No democracy for them then. What bullies these people are.

Ah lol - I think that overall Switzerland is the only Democracy worthy of its name. No King or Queen, no non elected Chamber, no power for the establisehd Churches- and all new Laws and big projects are put to the vote- and any big change or decision can be forced to a Referendum if there is a popular petition with enough signatures.

In this case however, they have had to back down as the EU made it absolutely crystal clear that a 'soft' option was never going to happen. With the Franc being so high, and production costs too- but with import cartels charging them 30 to 40% more than other European countries- the Government has had to come to the conclusion, after 2 years of negotiations (they could negotiate freely- wherease the UK is not allowed by the very terms of the EU to negotiate pre artilce 50- and then not allowed to negotiate after article 50- as per signed and clear agreements) - that the price was just far too high and dangerous for the Swiss economy- especially as other markets like the Chinese- is slowing down sharp and fast.

There is Democracy unparralled elsewhere- but then there is also common sense and the best interest of the citizens too.
They have today had to admit Croatia as part of the deal. The only concession they have managed to go away with- is the right to offer new jobs to locals and the unemployed first. Won't have much of an impact as most new jobs are in high end engineering, technology, IT, pharma research and luxury high end watch making - and the local unemployed generally DO NOT have the necessary qualification and/or skills (as well as often unable to get up in the morning and stick to a job for more than 3 days ...).

Switzerland is obviously a perfect democracy, until the bullyboys over rule them! As I said, poor Switzerland! But like Greece really!

@Jalima

I don't find it odd; presumably you voted remain (as I did) and state that certain aspects of the EU are found to be distasteful.

But I wasn't talking about how I felt about the EU or how UK Remainers feel. Though if it hasn't become apparent over the last few months that people (in general, which includes people in other countries) do see flaws in the EU even if they want to stay in, then one would have been walking around blind and deaf...

It's not bullying, for goodness sake, to say these are the rules of the club and if you don't want to conform to them you can't be a member.

niggly - no-one decided for the Swiss- they came to the conclusion themselves, after 2 years of hard negotiations- that the price to pay was just too high. No-body bullied them.

Brilliant, this.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/guidance_from_prime_ministers_fa#incoming-902332

A real Freedom of Information request.

There's another video of that meeting on YouTube. It didn't look like May was cold-shouldered. She was chatting to Merkel and there were other people who were on their own. May is known as being socially a little awkward. She could quite easily have gone up to anybody, if she had wanted. The media picked up on a few moments when she was on her own and not quite sure what she was supposed to do next.

This is the media trying to make it look as though May was cold-shouldered by the 'pack' and choosing a video clip to demonstrate it.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/brexit/brexit-brief-uk-eu-defence-and-security-cooperation

We will probably have to do and pay the same, but lose influence on how and where EU and our troops are deployed, and obviously lose the veto.

I must say I do have doubts about the sense of comparing the economic situation of Greece and that of Switzerland, quite honestly.

I agree, granjura. When thinking of finance and Switzerland, I would never think of Greece in the same manner. Doesn't make sense.
I can't imagine banks or insurance companies moving their head offices to Greece; I can imagine them moving to Switzerland.

I thought referendums in switzerland went something like, shall we join the eu.....No shall we ensure that all women in all cantons have the vote......No Shall we put more cream in the Mille feuilles ... Yes

Can I say that when I mentioned Greece and Switzerland in the same post it was only because they were two countries which had potential to leave, the EU, in the case of Greece, and the single market, in the case of Switzerland. I wasn't implying that there were any particular similarities between them.

LOL @ nancyma

Oh I know Maisie- was talking about Niggly's post.

Nancy- lol - my region was the first to give women the vote btw ;)

I had the vote in the UK right through the 39 years I lived in UK btw - but it was not very 'democratic' as it always went right into the bin due to the First Past the Post system... not much of an incentive. If you live in a Constituency in the UK tht doesn't 'fit' your political view- you might as well not bother (I always did, on principle ...but).

This is why remainers should carry on trying.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/12/17/despair-is-a-luxury-we-cannot-indulge-in/

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/12/16/the-tipping-point-for-real-change-may-be-closer-than-we-think/