Berlin

@Jalima

I agree that Western meddling with bombs and the need to sell arms has been partly responsible for the mess. Do you remember when people though that 'getting' Ghaddafi and Saddam Hussain was the target?

The kind of support ('meddling' if you like) would be much softer and more in line with what MOnica is suggesting. The British Council already operates in North Africa, offering advice for education projects, business and language course, etc.

I don't think we can wash our hands of the situation for young people in other countries by claiming that they have nothing to do with us. The British are relatively lucky, because we are made up of a number of islands, so a giant moat gives us some kind of protection. Mainland Europe isn't so lucky. Even without Schengen, it was possible to cross borders without going through checkpoints. Without building walls and having 30 metre 'no man's land areas' such as existed in Berlin before 1989, I don't see how that can be stopped.

It's not just a humanitarian issue, but we're now seeing that physical borders can't stop the spread of ideas. I don't think we can afford to hope the whole thing goes away. Along with other countries, we need to try and improve living conditions in other countries, so that people don't want to risk their lives to escape. The EU has a working group on the issues. Unfortunately, the UK will no longer be a part of that, just when European co-operation is needed more than ever.

I have read several times that reporters just dont go into wartorn countries and areas like they used to.
Often newspaper reports are merely written in London using reports from local people on the ground. Which is not the same thing at all.

Thinking about it,this could explain quite a lot.
If the world's media, or the west's doesnt really have much of a clue about what is really happening in areas of the middle east, how can

Governments make correct policies?
The ordinary people get a clear picture?
News of the area be very accurate?
Regional variations and thoughts and insight be taken into account?

Not that I blams reporters. I think that over the years, so many of their number have been lost, that they dont go now.

We seem to see quite a few reporters actually in wartorn countries on the BBC news. Lyse Doucet for example.
Looks like trouble ahead with the UN coming out against illegal Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. I don't know why this is such an apparently contentious issue. Obviously I'm being naive but isn't it just plain unfair to the Palestinians?

I cant say I have seen her with weapons being used around her, but I could be wrong.

There dont seem to be the likes of Kate Adie, Jeremy Bowen and another woman journalist, and their crews of course, standing there while the action is happening, nowadays.
Their reports were invaluable. Plus the background reporting.

Where are the reports from Tunisia. Or Iraq or other middle eastern countries, from the ground? Regular news reports?

Some of the big news agencies and state media do send in war correspondents. However, investigative journalism has almost disappeared, not only for war stories, for financial reasons. Therefore, there is a reliance on second hand reporting and some media outlets are less vigilant about checking their sources.

Yesterday, the BBC was nearly half an hour behind other media on reporting the killing in Milan of the Berlin truck murderer. I wondered why. At first, I thought the BBC was asleep on the job, but then realised that other outlets were reporting unconfirmed sources. The BBC waited for the official announcement by the Italian authorities, which is why I would still trust rather than outfits such as Sky, which almost exclusively uses secondary reporting.

Many years ago, I worked for Reuters and we monitored how quickly we got out our big news stories and were always in competition with the other news agencies, so half an hour would have been frowned upon. However, we also used to monitor the source of the information and who confirmed stories. An official source could not be compared with 'Fred Bloggs said...'.

These days, the internet has completely changed the situation. News outlets rely on 'live' pictures from outsiders. These can be manipulated to show just one side of a story. Undoubtedly some pictures from the Middle East do just that. Moreover, some governments use doctored photos for their own propaganda and have sometimes been caught out using archived pictures from historic conflicts. This is what Farage did with his immigrant poster. He used a genuine photo, but accompanied it with an entirely different narrative.

@Ankers

Do you read Aljazeera? They have plenty, but I think even they are a bit wary, since some of their journalists were arrested - and, in some cases, condemned to death.

Careful Jane10! You'll be accused of being anti-semitic. I agree with you and I think we're going to see trouble. I wonder if the UN will have the teeth to act.

I'm not anti Semitic it just doesn't seem right. Palestinian is Palestinian so why set up all these Israeli settlements in what is another country? I don't understand why this is somehow OK to some people.

Palestine. Stupid predictive text. Stupid typist!

I don't understand it either nor do I understand the attempts to label criticism of the Israeli government as anti-semitic, but that's what some groups try to do.

Apparently Trump has said that he'll reverse the US non-veto, so I fear for Palestine.

Actually that sort of illegal annexation of another country is the sort of thing that leads to anti semitism. I'd be anti anyone who decided to just build in my garden!
DH pointed out correctly that many Jewish people don't agree with what Israel is doing. Netanyahu doesn't speak for all Jews in the same way Sturgeon doesn't speak for all Scots.

Agreed. I also think it's the kind of issue which contributes to anti-US (and West) resentment amongst radical Muslims. The US has up to now always resisted UN moves to condemn Israel and has used its veto. Israel has withdrawn its diplomatic representatives from Senegal and New Zealand for supporting the condemnation. Your DH is quite right, Jane10. I know a number of Jews who utterly condemn what Netanyahu is doing. He doesn't want a two state solution for Palestine.

Why does the US seem to think its OK?

Because there are very powerful politicians and extremely rich business people in the USA who are in favour.

It stinks. Its just not right and its not fair.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4064256/Stupid-dangerous-Masked-man-parading-SIS-flag-films-walking-straight-German-border-taunts-officials-non-existent-security-checks.html#comments

it does seem he's exposed how insecure borders are and how difficult security is. Can you imagine every little road into or out of a country having a crossing guard?

Impossible,

Exactly Anya - this is obviously a little border crossing on a tiny country road- there are 100s around here too- and also miles upon miles of countryside, woods and fields. Schengen or no Schengen- it would be absolutely impossible to man the whole border!? Been for a walk with the dogs this afternoon, possibly crossed the border many times without knowing... there isn't a white line marked, a fence or a wall!

The actual border post is manned for 3 hours at random every day/night- and there are also regular patrols n minor roads.
The best way to cross ingognito would be to be on a mountain bike - as there are 1000s of miles of xcountry routes in the woods. Those who think the whole borders in Europe can be manned 24/7 really have not got a clue of the geography and reality out there.

Looks like he crossed in the Vosges area where there are also 100s of miles of woods and countryroads- and then boarded a train in France. There are border guards in all trains coming from Italiy (due to migrants arriving in Sicily and then up), but not all trains out of FRance into Italy- but it is easy to walk or cycle from one country to the other then get on the national train network.

Oh yes, I remember the days when you had your passport checked on the train by armed police. Quite scary at night as a teenager travelling round Europe. They used to march people off whose papers or tickets weren't in order.

They still do- 3 of my neighbours are border guards and they do the train runs- recently they have been drafted 10 days at a time to work on the other side of the country on the trains from Italy.

^I have read several times that reporters just dont go into wartorn countries and areas like they used to.
Often newspaper reports are merely written in London using reports from local people on the ground. Which is not the same thing at all...

Not that I blams reporters. I think that over the years, so many of their number have been lost, that they dont go now.^

I suspect this is less down to unwilling reporters an far more about newspapers not having the money.

In the case of the BBC I suspect it may be more for ideological reasons. They prefer to pay foreign journos on the ground than support British reporters to go in, and of course it does save money to pay the inflated salaries of BBC big guns.

Do you have any evidence for that, Mair?

The BBC has always syndicated news.

No evidence other than the general direction of the BBCs political agenda.
That was why I cautiously introduced my statement with the words "I suspect.."

We do know how very generously BBC people pay themselves though too.

Mair The scenario you describe of a mix of in-house reporters, in London or on-station, 'stringers' local freelance journalists under contract to individual broadcast media or freelanceing, and foreign freelancers is how news media has always operated. They operated like that in WW2, Iraq and in many other theatres of war

The local journalists are usually extremely good and because they speak the language, know the country and culture and have the contacts to send back far better reports than an incomer with a translator.

The journalists that were beheaded by ISIS were freelancers going out for good stories and selling them to news media.

Such is the nature of the world, all the things, good and bad. that are happening in completely different ways in countries with widely differing cultures a one size fits all (news media employ their own staff and use no other) would never work, has never work. Different horses for different courses has always been the rule