Berlin

The suspect moved to Europe in 2011. Did people foresee events then? Did people realise that the German police would make such a mess?

How would you have managed the situation, Ankers?

They don't have anti-racist legislation, because legally they don't recognise different races/religions. They hide behind the constitution and claim everybody is equal - except they're not. They don't even know how many Muslims live in France, because they can't ask for details.

re Muslims in France - first they form a much bigger proportion of the population than in the UK:
France 9.6%
UK 4.6%
Germany 4.3%
Second, I get the impression that French people are much more openly racist than in the UK. I don't think they have the same degree of 'PC' (and possibly anti-racist legislation.)

There were plenty of people who foresaw the events Lillie. Many gransnet threads about it. And elsewhere of course.

This is a link to just about everything anybody ever wanted to know about emigration from Tunisia (and a load people probably didn't want to know):

www.migrationpolicy.org/article/revolution-and-political-transition-tunisia-migration-game-changer

Thanks for the thumbs up, Lillie. I know I'm speaking against the grain. I'm as appalled as anybody else and just don't know the answers, but I really feel that we need to hold the centre ground and not do IS's work for them.

I agree with you about the Muslims in France. I know some French people will claim the the secular constitution doesn't recognise difference, but I know from French Muslim friends, that there is a huge amount of discrimination. There are a number of French Muslims working in British schools, because they say that the UK is less discriminatory than France. I've visited the 'banlieues' in Paris and they're horrible. The first generation made a positive decision to emigrate, so put up with it, but the second/third generation provide a ripe breeding ground for radicalisation.

I think (well, I least I hope) that Germany's collective guilt will save it from a xenophobic backlash. More than any other country it knows where xenophobia and racism can lead. I think Merkel will hang on in the next election - probably with different coalition partners.

I must admit that I find it strange that the German police and intelligence seem to have messed up. Surely there are some former Stasi people around who could give some advice - or maybe they and close surveillance have become taboo too.

Yes, and sometimes we have to backtrack on our initial reaction, (myself included). Angela Merkel is a humanitarian and as you say daphnedill she could not have foreseen these awful events. She must be so saddened by the tragic outcome. Germany is a country which has worked hard to learn from its past mistakes and this misery must hit deep.

And yes, I also think the German police and intelligence have messed up when they knew this man was a criminal and about to plot atrocities.

The Tunisian bit is complicated, but I believe it was a time bomb waiting to happen. We are now into a third generation whose grandparents came over to Paris, ostensibly to work and rebuild, but were placed in ghettos in the banlieues - poor housing, poor education, and never integrated into French society. There is resentment and hostility which leads to their radicalisation. No one has come up with the answers and I for one fear for the next chapter in history.

@Ww

It would appear that the suspect emigrated to Italy in 2012. He served a prison sentence in Italy for arson and has been convicted for a crime in Tunisia, presumably before 2012. Maybe that's why he didn't want to go back to Tunisia.

I don't think Tunisians have the right to go to France, although Algerians had the choice immediately after independence. Historically, Tunisia had as many ties with Italy as it did with France and the old Tunisian government encouraged people to emigrate, but monitored its overseas citizens to make sure they didn't involve themselves in anti-government initiatives.

Interestingly, this man left Tunisia at the beginning of the 'Arab Spring' season before IS moved in. He was probably radicalised in Europe rather than sent by IS. Tunisia is the most secular of all the Arab states, although there are still groups within the country which resent the secular constitution.

He has been arrested three times by the German police, but released on each occasion, despite being known to intelligence services. He entered Germany in 2015 and his asylum application was rejected. However, he couldn't be deported, because the Tunisians refused to recognise him as a Tunisian citizen.

I'm sure there's more to this, but you have to ask yourself what the heck the German police and intelligence services were playing at. I think it's unfair to blame Merkel's policy on immigration, because he was already in Europe before the migrant crisis developed and was already on the radar. On the face of it, it seems like a failure by the authorities to monitor him.

Let's hope he is caught without any further loss of life.

I'm wondering if intelligence is behind not only the stepping up of security around Buckingham Palace but the decision made for the Queen and D of E not to travel by train to Sandringham today because they both have heavy colds.

It may be true that they're unwell but not having her travelling around the country at this moment in time could be a wise decision.

Hmm...

So were mine- I can assure you- until some comments here side-tracked to immigration and refugees.

No, I did come to the thread rather late.

I was actually keeping up with events on the news channel - but my first thoughts were for the victims and their families, not why Brexit is going to make illegal immigration to the UK easier!

Ana I just re-read the 3 pages- and you didn't post a word about your compassion for the victims.

So sad.

Where were the "stingers" and the barriers they brought in after Nice? Why do they forget so quickly?

I think we were all horrified about Berlin * Jalima* - It was a dreadful thing and a subject very worthy of a thread and discussion - all those poor families.

I was thinking about the fact it appears the man was Tunisian or similar - I wondered if they had any right to go to France (like the Irish into England) because there was a great tie up with France and North African countries - many of them speak French. there must have been some reason he hoped he might get asylum somewhere.

I was horrified too, especially for those families that have been affected. Also for Angela Merkel - she's having a very rough time, and seemed to have offered a home to so many displaced people for the best of motives.
These big terrorist attacks can also have the effect of undermining the economy of the countries where they happen.

(my post was in reply to the one before yours, Annie, of course)

Not everyone immediately thinks like that! Have you no compassion for the families of those killed in Berlin?

I'm off this thread - some people's priorities seem to be seriously warped to me.

No

It was a thread hoping that people would express some horror and condolences.

But that was probably rather naive of me.

No, it's about twelve people murdered in Germany, many more injured and the search for the murderer

It's all linked to immigration and asylum seekers, no?

In the meantime, Muslim families are beign stopped from visiting other parts of the world, and a young man and his friend are kicked off a plane for making a phone call on his mobile phone to his mum in arabic, and his friend too.

How far are we going to take vigilance?

Oh dear, I started this thread because I was horrified with what had happened and because I wanted to express my sadness at such evil in the midst of Christmas joy.

Does every thread have to turn into a political/Brexit fight?



My condolences to those who lost loved ones of all nationalities, to the injured and to the German people and may their hope in humanity not be destroyed.

Which some people seem to be obsessed with.

Meanwhile the alleged perpetrator of the Berlin massacre, Anis Amri, is on the run and could be anywhere. I'd have thought the question of why people do this sort of thing was more important than Brexit.

If you go back, it was deflected to immigration from Post 2- and then to immigration into UK. And what will happen to that is very much linked to ... you know what.

I don't think I worded that question correctly