Wheelchairs versus buggies court ruling

Chrishappy, in that situation the second wheelchair user would have to wait for the next bus, just as people with buggies have to wait if the space is already occupied by a couple of buggies. The point is that the wheelchair space was provided in the first instance specifically for wheelchair users whose groups had fought for and won this provision. Most people who travel by bus have no problem giving up the space if a wheelchair user needs it. There is always the small number who feel they have the greater right to keep their buggy there. Up to that provision buggies had to be folded, inconvenient yes, but it didn't stop you boarding the bus. No provision for a wheelchair does stop the disabled using the bus.
Yes, you can get money for taxis etc if disabled but this has been cut back massively. I believe if you can walk from your front door to your garden gate you are considered mobile and it is reduced. I wait to be corrected on that last point by someone more au fait with the benefit system.

I don't understand why buses don't have more seats that fold up. Mums could sit on one seat and fold the seat beside them up to accommodate the pushchair. The seats could also be folded up to fit in a wheelchair when required. With 6 small grandchildren, one of whom is a wheelchair user I've got a foot in both camps but you wouldn't believe how rude some people are towards wheelchair users!

What ifs?

I totally agree with 'gettingonbit'. Who knows who is going to use a bus on any given day.

Is there really an answer to this problem?

What happens if the disabled space is filled by a wheelchair and another wheelchair user wants to get on? ( You could go on forever with this thread) also a lot of disabled get disability money for a mobility car or to pay for taxis.

BillyW, I think the contract would only extend to picking you up at the start of your journey, allowing you to board and pay, and depositing you at your desired bus stop. I don't think it includes finding space for your buggy, suitcase, shopping trolley etc. I do personally think if you allow a disabled person in a wheelchair to board then the contract covers both the person and the chair. The space available is clearly marked for the wheelchair owner. If we are not going to provide this space then we should go back to filling it with extra seats and insisting on folding trolleys and let the disabled manage as best they can. The old way! But they fought and won the right to travel and I support them fully. As I believe you do.

Billy sadly it's not 'the law'. As for the 'contract' part of that is that wheelchairs have priority. If a buggy user has to get off, the driver gives them a ticket to use on the next bus. All your scenarios about infrequent buses etc apply with bells on for wheelchair users as gillybob says

Maybe we should take a leaf out of the Disney transportation system. Everyone queues at the bus stop , and when everyone has disembarked, wheelchairs get on , then everyone else .

There's never any disagreement on how this works, the buses are no more spacious than UK buses although they do have less seats and slightly more standing room . There are lots of buggies of all sorts and they either get squeezed in after the wheelchairs or they wait for the next bus.

The only real difference I suspect is the timetable ( more frequent buses) and the driver is in charge, and everyone follows his direction.

harrigran My first 2 were born within a year of eachother, early 60s. I had a lightweight twin pushchair, always used the bus (no car) to the nearest town, and was able to fold it and put under the stairs of the bus.

I believe it would do some of these young mums good to get some much-needed exercise pushing their tank-sized buggies instead of getting on at one stop and then ringing to get off at the very next stop! And yes, I have witnessed this recently.

It's not just the child buggies that are way too outsize......little wonder there's precious little room for a wheelchair user who, IMHO, has precedence over these Bessie Bunter mums and their offspring who often look suspiciously too old and too big for a buggy.

There - that rant did me the world of good.

Mending them, not ending them.

Nelliemoser yes they were...except thee brakes were rubbish and the studs that held them together used to come off. There was a pram shop in St Albans where the man had a nice little sideline in ending them.
And on more than one occasion my double buggy started slowly gliding down the hill!
However there are similar buggies available now which could be marketed as Bus Buggies.

When my children were tiny there was no such thing as a folding pushchair so all journeys were made on foot. I only used buses when DC were able to walk, DS was way too heavy to ever be carried. In the three years after each child I was the lightest and fittest I have ever been, win win situation.
I am at a loss as to why the mothers now can't walk with their babies.

no BillieW it would mean that the buggy would need to be folded in order to let the wheelchair on. Can you imagine being left at the kerbside in a wheelchair for an hour just because some selfish person thought that folding their buggy was a terrible inconvenience. A simple sign stating that all puschairs must be folded would solve the problem.

When my children were small you had no choice but to fold the buggy. There was no way to get on the bus otherwise. Can't see the problem really.

I agree with most of what has been said, but I do not think all scenarios have been thought through. If a parent/carer with a child in a buggy has purchased a ticket and occupied the space, surely that is a contract?
So if at the next stop someone in a wheelchair wants to board, does this law mean the pushchair user has to get off? What if it is rural or semi rural route and the bus runs only every hour less frequent or it's the last one, or the bus stop where they got on had a pavement n shelter as it was in the town/village whereas the next one has neither?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding this judgement.

Ah the original Maclaren walking stick buggies were wonderfully convenient. Not like these awful big things.

That is a good result. Wheelchair have far less options available to get where they want to than mothers with buggies.

Surely parents who want to use public transport have a choice whether to have a folding buggy or not which a disabled person doesn't have. The disabled campaigned for those spaces, mothers did not. Life is hard enough for the disabled without entitled mothers refusing to co-operate. Of course it is nicer if the disabled are polite, I certainly would be if I needed to use one of the spaces and a buggy needed to be moved, but if you are disabled you are probably fed up with having to tackle people on a daily basis along with plenty of other things they endure. Maybe life is tough enough, travel is exhausting and they don't have a lot of energy left for being cheerful when somebody vacates the space they are entitled to. I am horrified by some of the things people say about the disabled. One mother I heard berating a disabled person who, rather reasonably wanted to park in the blue badge space she was parked in with her small child, was screaming about how unreasonable it was that she had to walk further to the supermarket if she moved into an ordinary parking space. I wanted to tell her that she was lucky she could walk at all which wasn't the good fortune the disabled driver had.

My statement was harsh - I said that. But it was true - she did make a choice and choices have consequences and as grown ups, we have to think those through. If we decide that problems resulting from our choices in th short term are worth it, that's fine, but we can't expect others to necessarily to pay the price of the choices we make such as a wheelchair user being denied their designated space on the bus. If you have to use a wheelchair sometimes, imagine what it's like to use a wheelchair all the tome and have no choices.

And yes, Chris, I agree the statement was rather harsh. No-one knows another person's circumstances and a little bit of understanding works both ways

I couldn't agree more Divorgilla and, I have explained in my previous posts that I would always put my grandsons pushchair down, not just for wheelchair users and, that this issue should really be dealt with by common sense , common decency and a little bit of compassion for other people

Rigby46, it is rather harsh, yes she chose in very difficult circumstances physically and medically to have children in her late 30s and at great cost, taxis far too expensive, online shopping she does but you can't get everything that way,a nd as for me helping,well you see I'm disabled and have at times had to use a wheelchair. There is always 2 ways to look a these things you know.

That is an interesting dilemma Grannyben but I would still maintain that, unless the person refusing to vacate the space is more disabled that the disabled passenger wishing to use the space, the disabled passenger should have priority. When I taught RE I had a video which showed the problems of the disabled getting around and getting accepted. It reversed the bus situation. Suppose all buses were geared to the disabled and you, the able bodied, only got on with the sufferance of the disabled. How would you feel? Same in restaurants. Suppose the disabled got all the best seats and the able bodied was shown to the squashed table by the men's toilets. How would you feel? Treated like a full human being? Or just tolerated? It was very interesting to see how many of the pupils I taught actually got the point and supported the disabled. I hope that some 16 years on they would fold their buggies.

Could I ask Rigby, do you agree with the Supreme Court ruling that there will be circumstances where it is reasonable for a passenger to refuse to vacate the wheelchair slot and that there needs to be a balance between the needs of wheelchair users and other vulnerable passengers including parents with babies in prams/buggies?

If I recall correctly the space was originally created specifically for disabled users. It then rapidly became a repository for buggies, trolleys, suitcases et al. BUT..... it was originally for the disabled. They have priority. It should IMHO be enforced by whatever means. I have seen mothers with children abusing passengers for standing too near their buggies in that space when the bus was crowded. How precious is that! I have seen disabled people left in the pouring rain because there were too many buggies. How selfish is that! I have seen at least three buggies unfolded on a busy bus, blocking people's access. How unsafe is that! Bus catches fire - who gets off first or do we all perish together? I thought H&S rules specified a certain number of buggies - two - unless space needed for wheelchair. It's a no brainer for me. Wheelchairs users win the day.