UK govt. - effective opposition?

No, of course Labour journalists aren't voting for the same reasons as a disabled person in an unemployment blackspot - nor is JK Rowling or Eddie Izzard. Does it matter? They care about a society which doesn't just support people like them. It would, I think, be a sad world if we only stood up for ourselves and people like us and had no principles.

We'd still deprive most of the country of a vote, send little boys up chimneys and treat women as chattels, if those with power only ever looked after their own. The fact that we care more about equality is one of the reasons the West likes to look down on societies in the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

Two of the most irritating women in Westminster , and did Corbyn have to wear that bloody hat

I agree with you about Emily Thornberry and Diane Abbott. I just can't help myself, but I want to slap both of them and I suspect other people feel like that.

Even without the loss of the Scottish seats, Labour couldn't have formed a majority government.

The real problem for Labour is the loss of the traditional Labour seats in small towns, especially in the Midlands. Stoke and Copeland will be interesting.

True tricia, and the rise of UKIP , they didn't take seats but they took the anti immigrant vote .

Don't forget that in the 2015 election it was the loss off all those seats in Scotland, to the SNP, which hit Labour so hard.

What % of votes is needed for the winning party in an election, or during their time in office, to mean they are popular?

In the 2015 election, only 25% of those eligible to vote, voted Conservative. Maybe some didn't vote, because they knew their vote wouldn't make a difference, but it's not a mandate for the course the Conservatives are now taking. It's an open goal for Labour, but they don't have the strikers.

School budgets are being slashed, the NHS is being destroyed, social care is struggling, houses aren't being built - these aren't issues which affect not just the poorest and most vulnerable. Yet Corbyn waffles on about issues (which might be admirable) that people don't really care that much about.

Are the Tories so far ahead because they are so popular or because Corbyn is so unpopular , I think the latter . Who takes notice of Corbyn ? apart from corbynites, his name isn't included in bi election flyers and Khan kept him at a distance during the London campaign. Where is his support within the labour oposition? QT last week we had Emily Thornberry, this week we have Diane Abbott, these are Lsbours big guns ?
. Cringe time

When Guardian journalists vote Labour are they really voting for exactly the same thing as the long term unemployed in an unemployment black spot also voting Labour? I doubt it.

Why would you doubt it, MOnica?

Isn't one of the reasons that they are Guardian journalists the fact that they are concerned about and wish to help and support people like the long term unemployed by raising awareness of them and campaigning for improvements to their lives?

If not, what do you think a Guardian journalist would be voting Labour for?

Well, it's all shades of 'unpopular' then , with the Tories being less unpopular than Labour!

The Tories are unpopular - the trouble is that Labour is even more unpopular and is losing support to UKIP, the LibDems and the 'can't be bothered to voter's.

Michael Foot was a disaster MOnica, Brown was not . I will leave aside his so called domestic virtues, If Brown had stood against Blair for the leadership I believe he would have won, he stood aside for the party, how many politicians have or would do that . John Smith had such respect for Brown and it was said Smith saw Brown as the next leader .

If you think the Tories are popular you can't be reading the same things as me! They are doing well in the polls because there isn't much opposition when you have the Labour Party stuck with Jeremy Corbyn, who has a lot of very vocal supporters which hides the fact that a lot of us can't stand him.
The things that matter - Education, NHS and social care - are in a dire state and yet Labour are behind the Tories (who have caused the mess) in the polls!!

I disagree that it doesn't matter what people thought they were voting for in the referendum.

In an election, people vote for a 'best fit'. I'm guessing that only die-hard party supporters agree with everything a party has in its manifesto. I think they probably know that 'events' might turn out differently or parties don't keep their promises. Parties can be voted out in five years, if they don't do the job.

However, the referendum was different. For a start, it can't be changed after five years. More importantly, it seems clear that people voted for all sorts of different issues, most of which won't be realised, so only a minority are going to end up satisfied. The trouble with a simple Yes/No vote is that there isn't an option for 'Yes/No, but only if...'.

Unfortunately, the timing of negotiations means that the public can't have a say after Article 50 has been triggered, but I think it would be interesting (and I expect it will happen) to carry out a poll after two years when the arrangements are clearer.

Don't know about the Tories being 'so unpopular', a double-digit lead in the polls doesn't indicate that!

...but Leticia, the Tories are NOT so unpopular, they have a massive lead over Labour in the polls.

Daphne, Brown couldn't do tv, and you are so right, the Tories failed to get an overall majority by twenty seats , this was the second election after the Iraq war

It should be easy for Labour since the Tories are so unpopular- never a better time for them and yet they are hampered by their leader. I don't care what the press say - he irritates me that he is inflexible and what he thinks always comes first.
His heart was never staying in the EU, if he had put his back into the campaign we might not be in this mess. Now we only have the Lib Dems as an opposition to Brexit.
Anyway the by elections will be a good indication of how Labour are doing- not well is my guess.

No one would deny Gordon Brown his domestic virtues, nor do other than admire his dignity in defeat and retreat away from the limelight to work for others rather than monetary gain. BUT, as a leader he was a disaster.

If a very private person chooses to enter the public arena for whatever reason they must accept that they have to develop the skills of laying it out to the public and this was a skill Brown never developed, and always gave the impression he couldn't be bothered to try to develop. He seemed to lack a feel for people en masse.

What individuals thought they were voting for when they voted in the referendum is irrelevant, in any election/referendum, most of the voters are voting for different things while usually splitting their votes between one of two parties. When Guardian journalists vote Labour are they really voting for exactly the same thing as the long term unemployed in an unemployment black spot also voting Labour? I doubt it.

Democracy works in a rough and ready fashion. It is not the ideal solution but do you know of anything better? A simple question was asked with a Yes/No answer. The government goes on that vote and that is it.

I doubt the result would be any different even if there was another popular vote after the terms are agreed. Attitudes are so entrenched and not based on reason - on either side.

Well the May government has just had it's worst day with her industrial strategy being ignored while the big story is Trident cover up. So maybe the honeymoon is over.
I think Corbyn is getting an awful press -no surprise because most newspapers are notoriously right wing and getting more so. He and is getting painted as being somewhere to the left of Marx. In fact he is not that different to Harold Wilson and other Labour Prime ministers from the 20th century. He's just been less of a wheeler dealer and more his own man during his time in parliament. - having never aspired to climb the greasy party pole to the leadership. His shadow cabinet, mostly new in their jobs last summer, are finding their feet. We should watch with interest.
Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels wrote a passage in which Gulliver sees a man getting dragged away under protest. A local inhabitant explains to the puzzled traveller that the man is being made to be prime minister because the person most suited to the role is the person who least wants the job.

I would love to vote Labour but there is no chance while Jeremy Corbyn is leader.

I agree with you, Annie. Brown's problem was that he wasn't a smooth talker and didn't come across well on TV. I don't really remember Attlee, but I understand that he had the same problem. I wonder if Attlee would have been PM if he'd been subjected to the same kind of media interest that modern politicians are.

Even in 2010, the Conservatives couldn't win an election outright. If voters had really thought that Blair/Brown had been so awful, the Conservatives should have won that election with a thumping majority.

Blair and Brown won three elections , I think that counts as succeeded . Brown could not express himself in a lovey dovey way , so Blair was mad and ?pBrown not much better? What just is not much better than mad? He couldn't do a Cameron, he wouldn't do a celeb circuit , he cared deeply for children, he couldn't / wouldn't show emotion publicly and I know from experience, being brought up in a manse you are exposed daily to the suffering of individuals . He never went public when Jennifer died and when his son Frazer was diagnosed with cystic fibrosis he did as he did after the death of Jennifer, put his grief and money into helping others with more charities, the money he makes goes to charities, he and Sarah are passionate about education for girls in countries where this is dismissed. So I defend him because I know he cares deeply for the individual and the masses . He is not a much better than mad man he is a good and caring man.