Labour now

Very impressed with Kezia Dugdale this morning. Nothing more to say really but I should admit that anyone who doesn't let Andrew Neil bully them and makes him actually talk about politics impresses me.

Daphne, you must keep an eye on IKIP threads, their members are sometimes referred to as kippers, you can tick them off too

Trisher, we had a guest house opposite that factory for ten years. The people that stayed with us who worked for Nestle were definitely not Trotskyists.

What I found interesting about the article was the fact that the person we think of as Trotsky wasn't Trotsky. I never knew that. Did you?

Thanks for the Peter Hitchens link dj gave me a real laugh. All those earnest students trying to recruit factory workers in York! Much better to have spent their time in the Union bar like proper students.

Being called a 'trot' is a derogatory term. I have a personal dislike of that kind of abbreviation anyway, because it dehumanises people.

In any case, Corbyn is not a Trotskyist. I can't be bothered explaining what Trotskyists believe in, but a read of Wiki gives a general idea. There are, at the very most, a couple of thousand Trotskyist activists in the UK.

Just seen your link to Peter Hitchens, dj. Peter Hitchens is opinionated and often arrogant, but he's an astute observer and a good writer. He's right about so-called Trotskyist bogeymen. There are far more neo-fascist, right-wing, racist and even complacent bogeymen.

Well said, Gracesgran.

Peter Hitchens was a Trotskyist.

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/take-it-from-an-ex-trot-labour-neednt-worry-about-trotskyists/

Trotskyist infiltration of the KitKat factory did not work.
Personally I am more concerned about the white supremacist signs made by trump's people in the White House than by Trotskyist infiltration of the Labour Party.

As Hitchens says, "But I fear that those who shriek and point at Trotskyist bogeymen in Jeremy Corbyn’s party will never understand what the real danger is. Indeed, they may be part of it themselves."

It's an interesting article. I never knew that much about Trotsky until I read it. Perhaps others should, too, before casting the insult around.

Puzzling why Corbyn devotees claim being called a trot, far left or connected to Momentum is an insult when he is all of them

The biggest problem is that you seem to think it is up to you to decide who is a Corbyn devotee Annie and that this then gives you permission to call people whatever you choose, often words at least meant as insulting and often are those that most would find insulting.

I have found the entry of Corbyn into the political arena interesting and the politics the world is seeing interesting. You 'decided' I was a Labour member at one point and that, apparently, meant you could throw any personally invective you chose at me - you did apologise when you finally accepted I was not but what gives you that right? I actually didn't stop posting on these threads, as nightowl and, I imagine others have done, I left GN for a period of time (hence the MK2) because of your takeover of any and every political thread you could use to attack Corbyn. It simply wasn't worth being part of the world as viewed by Annie.

The worst of it is that, as a centre to left of centre voter I can watch you led by the nose to attack anyone who is not right of centre by those who would not vote for the LP if it was led by Jesus Christ - well, I suppose particularly then - and you cannot see you are being used.

POGS if belonging to a political party and supporting that party regardless of what happens is a quality to be desired than I freely admit to not possessing it. I was brought up to question the policies and actions of all political parties and not to give unquestioned alliance to any one or anything. It seems to me that that is what true democracy is based on.
Anniebach has constantly given her views about Corbyn and anyone who attempts to suggest that he is a legitimate leader and needs to be worked with is belittled as a "devotee' or a"trot". It is also impossible to ask her to state which policies she is in favour of or against, she never really answers. Then I suppose that might be the result of giving unwavering support to one party, you never need to examine the policies.
I watched Corbyn on PMQ the other day pinning May down about the NHS. He did remarkably well and has certainly developed since his first PMQ. Her only defence was to trawl up the South Staffordshire Hospital under Labour. I expect we will see more of such in the future.
I do think Corbyn has made some mistakes such as the vote on leaving the EU. He should have allowed a free vote. It would have been more in keeping with the principles which got him elected as leader.

I get those begging emails too, Tricia. I assume that at some stage I gave them my email when they were first set up and I was interested in finding out what was going on.

I was going to block them, but then I thought "What the heck?". I can just delete them if I want and it's quite comical to read them at times.

Tricia, I don't think his weakness as leader can be blamed on the media, not even the DM.

He keeps giving the media plenty to write about, can you recall any party leader who claimed they were being harassed because they were asked a question on an early election. He brought on the mockery over traingate through his lies , he feeds the media .

Milliband was ridiculed over eating a bacon sandwich, Foot over a winter coat which was not full length, Kinnock for having red hair and being Welsh, compare these to hiding behind a glass door.

Baroness Shami on Andrew Marr, makes a change from Thornberry I suppose . Is there no one apart from Diane, Emily and Shami to defend the leader

Puzzling why Corbyn devotees claim being called a trot, far left or connected to Momentum is an insult when he is all of them .

Is it an insult to call anyone who cherishes the windsors a royalist?

I'm another one who was very enthusiastic about Corbyn at first, but have changed my mind now. He just doesn't have the leadership qualities to fight in these days when the right seem to be taking over everywhere. I was specially disappointed in his stance on Brexit.
I also wonder if his apparent failure as a leader could be due to biased media coverage.
Also, I apparently belong to Momentum - got an email from them yesterday asking for a donation.

I have refrained from commenting on this thread, having long ago come to the conclusion that it is pointless trying to take part in a political debate which is constantly derailed into a personal attack on the personality of the labour leader and has (on one side of the debate) nothing to say about his policies. In addition, I long ago decided that I can easily find personal abuse directed towards me in my real life so I have no wish to come on a public forum to find it. I have been quite saddened by the insults directed at me personally, and it is not a style I myself choose to use.

I do have to say though that your constant references to Momentum worry me Annie. I do have some knowledge of the organisation, though I am not and never have been a member, and 1) it's nowhere near as influential as you give it credit for being and 2) it's falling apart.

I also have to agree with dj in terms of the number of left wing posters on this thread. Most of us have long ago buggered off for various reasons which may or may not be similar to my own. I wish the very best of luck to those strong enough to carry on trying against the odds to put a different point of view.

Thank you POGS, yes we had some ding dongs , i blindly defended Corbyn but didn't know of momentum , you did. I really believed in him and really believed he was honest , big mistake on my part

Corbyn has declared he will remain leader untill the job is done , so the Labour Party has just been given s death sentence .

I agree with both points. Lewis has quite an impressive CV, which appears (unlike a certain leader of another party) to be genuine. However, he hasn't had enough shadow front bench experience.

He has only been an MP since 2015. To actually suggest that he could replace Corbyn, as some have done, is quite a slight to many MPs who have been serving longer.
I think his article was pragmatic as well as tactful.
Corbyn probably should have left it as a vote of conscience. Then he wouldn't have been in so much trouble - and Lewis would still be on the front bench.

Last year, Clive Lewis appeared on a platform with Caroline Lucas and Vince Cable. He's in favour of some kind of progressive alliance (or at least he was - he's possibly changed his mind). I think he's being...err...tactful. He obviously doesn't agree with Corbyn over Article 50, which is why he resigned his front bench role. He's possibly playing the long game.

What do you think of the Clive Lewis article, POGS?

x post

Have you counted them POGS? I doubt if the actual number of left-wing posters exceeds the number of Tory posters, but I haven't counted.

I didn't say that, POGS. I said voters, not posts. Not quite the same, as you will agree.

As I wrote, I'm so glad you've seen it all Chewbacca, so you know where I'm coming from. No, it doesn't look good and so glad you don't approve of snide and unnecessary comments.

durhamjen

"Most people on here are not Labour voters. Most of them are Tories and really enjoy the labour baiting. Do you wish to deny them that little bit of enjoyment?"

Really?

Considering thread after thread is 'dominated' by left wing posters/activists (their own words) does the reverse principle apply? Is that the end game to bait and get enjoyment?

Actually I think you need to do a 'recount' as to how many posts on this thread are from Tories, especially when you conclude posts are 'Mainly from Tories'.