English Scots for YES

That brings up another thought, Granny23. If Northern Ireland leaves the UK, and Scotland goes for independence, what will England and Wales be called, assuming that Wales wants to stay with England.

This one is for Niggly although I know I am wasting my time none so blind etc,

indyref2.scot/lets-nail-the-once-in-a-generation-myth

Now I have a question which genuinely puzzles me. It is this - Why do (some) people born in Scotland but who have chosen to make another part of the UK their home object so strongly to (many) people who live in Scotland wishing to be an Independent nation again?

What do they think they will lose if this should come to pass?

Is it something to do with being comfortable calling themselves British which currently incorporates both their place of birth and their place of residence or home?

I really don't understand and would be grateful if someone could explain.

And presumably to be done all over again! I do genuinely feel a deep sympathy for the Scots. To have to go through all that acrimony (and expense!!)so soon after the ' once in a generation' referendum of 2014, does seem very hard! If this doesn't pan out for the SNP, I wonder if they'll be yet another three or four years later, and so on till the SNP get the 'right' result?!!!!

I think it was the vitriol on line that was the worst of it, although I do know personally people who were physically threatened for not agreeing to display pro independence signs in their shop. And my own family was bitterly split in a way that shook me. In any event, it certainly didn't bring out the best in anyone!

Perhaps your family and friends have avoided acrimony mcem. If they are mostly of the separatist persuasion, the others may have avoided having too many arguments because they could see it would be unpleasant.

Anyone who denies that families and friends were bitterly divided by that 2014 campaign, and its continuence, just needs to look at the comments columns of any Scottish newspaper.

The EU referendum also caused divisions between friends and families all over the UK, but the Scottish campaign was much worse.

Not here pollaidh. Locally there was no toxic atmosphere and I know of no families riven by the vote. Yes there were disagreements but I saw and heard nothing violent or threatening.
Its wrong for either side to generalise like that.

You are right Varian. The atmosphere up here during 2014 was toxic. I know people who were genuinely scared to say they were not voting for independence. And I know families that were desperately riven by the vote.

Granny 23 is a keen supporter of the SNP and to tell us how wonderful her party is she quotes a lyrical tribute from an Englishwoman who has been converted to the cause "I am so proud of Scotland, of the kindness, the togetherness - anyone who attributes the drive for independence to racism doesn't know Scotland at all. This country is full of light and hope in a world dominated by bigoted selfishness." If only all SNP supporters had such benign and tolerant attitudes.

Contrast this with the vile statements of the army of "cybernats" who seem to work non stop posting online hideously offensive attacks online, targeting Scots who dare to speak out against separatism.

TV presenter Neil Oliver revealed last year that he has quit using social media after being subjected to “vicious” abuse from pro-independence supporters. The star of BBC show Coast deleted his Twitter account after being being bombarded with hate-filled messages after he spoke out in favour of the Union. Internet trolls sent him messages saying they hoped he got cancer and said he was a traitor who deserved to be burnt alive. The historian and archaeologist had more than 40,000 followers on the social networking site but has now closed it down after growing tired of the abuse. He said: “A great chunk of the response was not just negative but very personal and filled with bile and vicious loathing.

www.scotsman.com/news/tv-star-neil-oliver-quits-social-media-over-abuse-1-4205448#comments-area

I am sure it would be possible to find nasty comments from pro-union supporters but the shear quantity and extreme visciousness of the cybernats is in a different league. Some of these are said to be paid to do this. If so, it is a practice which the SNP should stop as it brings their campaign into disrepute.

Sadly not all SNP supporters are as nice as Granny23.

To respond to the rest of G23: there seem to be many disparate views on whether an separate Scottish state could remain within the EU. Jacqueline Minor, the European Commission's head of representation in the UK has said recently that nobody knows for sure, but the consensus is no and an independent Scotland will have to reapply to join the EU as a new member state. Although she did say that Holyrood might be able to fast-track its application because its laws would already accord with EU legislation.
Using Nicola Sturgeon's timetable of a vote on independence in 2018 or 2019, it is hard to find an expert willing to suggest the country could become part of the EU sooner than 2022.
The first delay would be opposition from European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, who has said he does not want to see any new states join the bloc during his term in office, which ends in 2020.
Former EU official Kirsty Hughes has said that it would take at least three to four years for Scotland to join after becoming independent. Assuming a 2019 referendum, that would mean 2022 or 2023. So there is no likelihood of Scotland becoming a member of the EU before Brexit is completed. You say there is no mechanism for Scotland to be "ejected" but as these are unchartered waters, neither is there any mechanism for a transition without application. But if we assume that Scotland does remain in the EU, then there are also issues of trade, borders and currency. I think the contention that is yes - they say you have to join the Euro, but really you can put it off indefinitely is, frankly, waffle. And even if there is a delay before the Euro is adopted, what currency will Scotland use in the meantime? There is no doubt that the Bank of England will not provide central bank services to Scottish banks operating and regulated in what is now a foreign country as it cannot accept risks over which it has no control. Speaking as a Borderer, I can only express horror at the nightmare of Euro/Sterling transactions. And as for trade, Scotland's largest single market is, by far, with the UK. Currency, customs and regulatory differences would make cross border transactions extremely expensive. (I feel very sorry for Ireland.)As much as deeply regret the outcome of the EU referendum, I have come to the conclusion that living in a separated Scotland would be to compound the misery and give us the worst of both worlds.

Thank you very much Granny23 for responding to my questions. I was very interested on your take regarding EU membership etc and will respond to that below. But first I have to say that one of your comments left me completely gobsmacked (to use a guid Scots word). And that was that Europe would welcome Scotland because "the English and latterly the British have been at war with the Germans, French, Spanish, Italians and many others over time, whereas Scotland as a country has never instigated war on anyone". so are you saying that, had Scotland been independent in 1939, it would/should have remained neutral (as with Eire)and would not have stood shoulder to shoulder with England against Hitler's Germany? Is this view widely held amongst Yes campaigners? I find it to say the least, extremely disturbing. In all the hype and posturing around the 2014 referendum I never once heard such a notion mentioned.

why would you? Which countries would you trust more than a UK Government, and trust how?How would another EU country protect Scotland better than a UK one ( and why should Spain/Germany etc ) care two hoots about the well being of Scotland?

the way the Westminster government is cutting the armed services we may well need a European army to give us back up some day ...sometime in the nor too distant future and tbh I'd trust a lot of those countries far more than Westminster

Tbh paddy I don't think those countries are truly independent, as the EU continues on it's merry way collecting countries, it becomes more than just trade deals.
Brussels and Germany call the shots, they want ever closer union/armies etc which is their real aim.
We thought it was just about trade when we said yes to entering the EU, but it has become clear that other aims were always on the agenda.
How do Scots feel about standing alone from the EU ( just trading with them) and standing alone from the rest of the UK.......we really need more Scots than are answering on this thread so far.
Yes, I do see your point about civic voting.

rosearered so you're saying that Spain and France and Germany and Portugal and Italy and all the other EU countries aren't truly independent....I think they would dispute that.The EU is responsible for less than 7% of laws and regulations and MOST of them are to our benefit .Unlike the austerity the tories are punishing the country with ,austerity is NOT a necessity its ideological . I have friends and family and aquaintances who are Polish ,Greek ,Cypriot,Indian,Slovenian ,Italian and many more ,some have beeen here for around 4 or 5 years some for over 30 years .They all work ,or run businesses and employ local people ..of course they must be allowed a vote .They contribute to this country and the community in many ways.The people who left are I'm sure doing the same where they settled...but they did leave and they dont contribute .Scottish nnationalism is not blood and earth nationalism its CIVIC ,and thats how it should be.I have afriend who emigrated to Spain 30 years ago.He wants a vote ...he doesn't want independence....wants the world he thinks he left behind to stay the same .THAT is patently wrong .

Why would the Scots want to exchange Westminster for Brussels? How can that be true independence?!!

Whilst I can't agree with some of this ( attitudes and mindsets and so on being somehow better than English/Welsh /NI ones) also there are kind and helpful people in any country, hearts are no bigger in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK.So, the language is very flowery, but if the author is so committed to independence then she and her family will vote that way.Equally though, there will be many Scots who do want the historic Union with the UK to hold, and they will vote too.
If I was a Scot, I think I would have a hard decision to make, but perhaps being out of the EU and the UK would be a step too far.Also, it wouldn't be true independance if Brussels were calling the shots.

Found this on facebook this am and thought immediately that I should share it here as it is from an English Scot:

^I always thought that you had to be incredibly intelligent to understand politics and to vote with anything like an informed mind. I was born (and later went to university) in England, grew up in Spain and never tried to understand the way the countries I lived in were governed. I felt like none of it really made any difference to my life. Then I had children and moved to Scotland with my husband and everything changed.
I couldn't understand how a nation of people could be dictated to by the out of touch people in Westminster, never get the government they voted for and that people were telling me this like it was somehow okay. It felt like the country I was bringing my children up in was in an abusive, damaging relationship and it would never be able to escape. I saw the differences between Scotland and England - the mindsets, the attitudes, the education and health systems, the way Scotland had such a big heart and her people were willing to do anything to help other people. Scotland was so very different from England, and while I loved both countries it was inconceivable to me that the way the system was, Scotland could never truly have a voice as part of the UK.
When the build-up to the referendum started I refused to make up my mind quickly. I researched, spent hours and hours talking it over with my husband and I talked to friends on both sides of the debate. I tried to see it from the Unionist perspective if only to understand both sides, but none of the arguments could make me feel that the union was anything other than ill-thought out, skewed and depressingly unfair. When we lost the referendum I felt like something had died, that a major part of my children's future had been wiped out.
I keep being told that a vote for independence is all about the hatred of the English. In the ten years I have lived in Scotland I have never felt anything other than welcome. With my plummy English accent, I am unmistakably not from here and no one cares. My family has been embraced by the community. At the end of last year when a refugee family from Syria moved here, I watched the people here embrace them too. I am so proud of Scotland, of the kindness, the togetherness - anyone who attributes the drive for independence to racism doesn't know Scotland at all.
This country is full of light and hope in a world dominated by bigoted selfishness. The fight for independence is a fight for an inclusive, beautiful country that my children can grow up in and be proud of. I don't think I have ever hoped for anything more than for us to win this second Independence Referendum.
Whatever happens, our fight is about something good and beautiful. I'm so proud to be part of it^

Had the separatists won the "once in a generation - or was it once in a lifetime" referendum in 2014, Scots in all parts of our country would have been affected by the consequences without ever having a say.

Exactly Rigby You explained what I was trying to say much better than I did. Thank you.

I'm with gilly on this. Apart from the completely impossible task of defining who is Scottish ( and gillybob gives 2 good examples) I think the test just has to be that if you live there permanently you get the vote. I really disagree with UK citizens living abroad retaining their right to vote here for years - when you cast a vote you should be in a position where you have to live with the consequences

I don't agree that people not living in Scotland, paying council tax in Scotland etc. Should be able to vote in a referendum. Where would you draw the line? That would mean the likes of bloomin' Lulu (who hasn't lived in scotland for over 40 years and James Bond Sean Connery voting (from the comfort of his tax haven in the Bahamas) on something that will NEVER effect them one little bit.

I was working in Scotland in 2014, although living in England. I stayed in a B&B or sometimes flew up and back in the day.

At the time of the referendum one of my English friends told me that her teenage son had a short term temporary job in Scotland and had been told he could vote. He hadn't got a clue what it was all about. I've no idea which way he voted but his mother thought that it was a bit absurd that he could vote and not me.

Sorry for getting it wrong Granny23 and thanks for the useful and interesting posts.

Excluding Scots who live outside of Scotland, and in particular those who live in another part of the UK, reflects a lack of understanding of two important factors -

1 The strong love for Scotland that Scots have, even if they are not currently in Scotland

2 The consequences of the potential destruction of the UK, especially for those who regards themselves as both Scottish and British.

For hundreds of years, many Scots, especially those who were well educated, skilled and entrepreneurial, went out into the world and their work made a huge impact, enhancing the standing of Scotland and of the United Kingdom.

Although I do not currently live in Scotland, I was born and brought up there, as were both of my parents. I am a graduate of a Scottish university and a member of a Scottish professional body. One of my children was born in Asia in what was at the time a British Crown Colony and one of her children was born in a European country. I suspect that those in Scotland who have not lived elsewhere are more likely to support the separatists because their experience is more limited.

I realise it would be difficult to define who is and is not Scottish, but I think that those who were born in Scotland or have at least one parent born in Scotland should have been allowed to vote in the 2014 referendum if they were living anywhere in the UK. There could well be a case for saying that those who identify as Scots and have pent at least x years of their lives in Scotland should also be enfranchised, but I accept that this would be more difficult to verify.

I'm English and proud of it and when in Europe particularly in the Netherlands, I have always received the warmest of welcomes as have all my family including my parents many years ago. My SIL has a home in rural France and has many wonderful French neighbours and friends. So where this dislike of English people on the continent comes from who knows as none of us have ever come up against any hostility whatsoever. Some Dutch friends did within the last five years when locals (French) thought that they were German!! It was an unpleasant incident but thankfully was resolved amicably when their true nationality was realised.