English Scots for YES

Only I think you had said that you would like to go and live in Scotland if they gained independence or perhaps I am mistaken.

dj, if you are ashamed to be English and consider yourself a European, I can't for the life of me understand why you choose to live in a country that you so despise bordering on hatred. I would have thought that there must be a European country that you would feel more at home in both politically and historically. I can't understand why you you stay here!

I would have thought that there must be a European country that you would feel more at home in both politically and historically.

I can't think of one off-hand niggynellie because most have their far-right movements, including Denmark.
Perhaps someone else may know.

Scotland may be? particularly if it manages to leave the UK.(England)

Oh Lord is there no-one who wants to engage in a serious courteous debate on this thread?? Is it all about picking at personalities (or perceived personalities) of politicians or firing bullets at each other about what we did or didn't say or mean? This is all too reminiscent of the vitriol and banality of the first Scottish referendum. So depressing....

Perhaps you ought to read all the post, niggly.

"I never identify as English; I am too ashamed of many who do. All names have been usurped,; Britain First, EDL, UKIP. European is the only description that hasn't been tarnished by the hard right."

Do you really like to be identified with Britain First, the EDL or UKIP?
By the way, even if I push off somewhere else on the continent, I can still annoy you on GN.

Maybe many of them do have their far right, but the main political group hasn't been lead by the nose to leave the EU by the far right. Carswell didn't leave UKIP and say job done for no reason.

But, djen is that not a form of giving in (sorry, Pollaidh, not firing bullets, really very curious) - giving in to the far right if you allow them to identify as the only form of 'English'? There is much to be proud of and I think we should uphold all that and not allow it to be taken over by these groups.

And saying that people have been led by the nose is quite insulting to anyone who are not of the far right and put much thought into their decision to vote leave (which most people assume means Mr Corbyn).

includes not means

grammar not good in that post but I think it is clear enough

Extremist views ( of any kind) are thankfully not held by many.
Most of us love the UK and our own country within it, and it is a most strange view not to identify with your own Nationality.Only one poster thinks like that so far, so definitely a minority on Gransnet.

Pollaidh I am as interested as you to hear Scottish views......perhaps they will be along soon.

Yes, I am too, apologies pollaidh for deviating.

I don't think you have to be a Scottish voter to have a dispassionate view on the context for another Scottish referendum. It will affect the whole of the UK and blasting away at conspiracy theories involving the discovery of oil deposits etc is just meaningless and, subtly, anti-English. While I am on the subject, by the way, the SNP currently rely on a lot of Green support and they want to leave the oil where it is....
I just think you have to have a reasoned argument that can stand up to scrutiny. We got into the whole Brexit mess because of emotional spin along the lines of "control" and "freedom" and "pay the NHS instead" none of which actually stands up to fact. Yet millions of people voted Leave on the back of these arguments. The Remain side were accused of "project fear". And it is the same in Scotland. An ardent fervour is whipped up on entirely unproven and unsubstantiated claims and any objection to Independence is labelled "project fear" (oh the irony!).

I don't agree with you on why millions voted to Leave (as we don't know everybody's reasons for either voting Leave or voting Remain ( my DD and friends were simply scared of being outside something they had always known for instance.)That may be true of an awful lot.
That may also hold true for a lot of Scottish voters wanting to stay with the UK ( other reasons are available!) However, it would be interesting to hear from all Scots, even those who won't get a vote because thay are living here in England or another part of the UK( which is wrong, they are Scots and should get a vote.)

Hi Roses! You are quite right - we can't specifically say why individuals voted the way they did. But it is a fact that 90% of the rhetoric around the Leave campaign was about control, freedom, borders, sovereignity etc, together with promises of still belonging to the Free Market. And so I think it is fair to assume that these arguments won the day. And now they are being tested they do not stand up. This is exactly the rhetoric that the pro-independence lobby use in Scotland. I am sure also, that many people voted to Remain and voted No to Independence because they were unsure about the impact of change and so went with the familiar. This is why I am so very keen that the options (as I stated above) are clearly and dispassionately set out before another referendum. People should know exactly what they are voting for, not just what they are voting against.
I don't agree that Scots living outwith Scotland should be eligible to vote. I think the definition of Scot could become too contentious. How would you define a Scot? Place of birth? Parentage? Both parents or just one?

I agree with your earlier post Pollaidh re the information needed before voting to leave or stay in the UK.

I think the SNP didn't get their facts clear enough in 2014 because, to begin with, they didn't think they could win and were happy just to be making a point. I think they were very surprised by the way support took off.

I hope that they are, right now, engaged in nailing down everything the voters need to know if there is to be a referendum in 2018/19.

I agree Pollaidh that it would be difficult to 'process' votes from Scots who don't live there, how could it be proved they were in fact Scots, hmmm.However I don't think that citizens of other countries, who may not live in Scotland for very long should have a vote.Perhaps for those who have lived in Scotland for ten years or more, or similar.What do Scots grans think?

I must be a glutton for punishment but I will take the bait and respond as best I can to Pollaidh's (noting the Gaelic spelling) suggested 'need to knows' because she (and Roses and others) are showing a genuine interest.

1) I agree with the proviso that the referendum must be held BEFORE the UK formally leaves the EU ie once all the terms and conditions are clear but before the fat lady sings. This is so important because there is no mechanism for ejecting an Independent Scotland whose citizens have expressed their wish to stay in the EU.

2) There is a large body of opinion in the EU which wants Scotland to stay in the EU. Perhaps partly as a poke in the eye to the English (you have to remember that their view is coloured by the vociferous and insulting speeches of Nigel Farage who claimed to speak for England in the EU Parliament) partly because Scotland has by far the biggest percentage of the EU's oil reserves, the best coastal waters for wave power and the such desirable fishing grounds that even the Spanish are prepared to overlook the perceived encouragement to the Catalans if Scotland achieves Independence in order to preserve their access to fishing in the North Sea. I get my information about these issues regularly via Alyn Smith, MEP's Facebook page, often showing video clips of proceedings in the EU Parliament and Committees. I'll bet that none of you saw the coverage of his speech in Rome at the celebration of the anniversary of the founding of the EU. Alyn was the only British MEP who was invited to speak, which he did (partly in Italian!) to great acclaim and much waving of Saltires.

Every Scot will know that when visiting Europe or indeed further afield that they are given a warmer welcome when they are known to be Scottish than they receive when they are thought to be English or British. I suppose this is a historic thing because the English and latterly the British have been at war with the Germans, French, Spanish, Italians and many others over time, whereas Scotland as a country has never instigated war on anyone -
all the famous battles from Largs to Culloden, have been the Scots defending their homeland against invaders.

3) See (1) above. The senior legal bods of the EU have already given their attention to this and have stated that there is nothing that can be done to eject Scotland from the EU if it becomes a sovereign state while still in the EU and that the terms and conditions would remain basically the same as those the UK currently enjoys, including a seat at the top table, with adjustments to levies, number of MSPs, etc commensurate with the population of the new State. The UK and Denmark currently have an agreed dispensation from adopting the Euro. I have no idea if that dispensation would be passed on to Scotland or if they will be deemed to be a NEW member and therefore required to agree to adopt the Euro. Whilst it is true that all new member states must agree to join the Euro Zone there is no timescale attached and no law that the EU can use to force compliance. So several countries have dilly dallied for years and seem to be making no attempt to meet the criteria, others, though keen to join have not met the criteria. Just Google 'EU countries not in the Euro' to prove this is true. An Independent Scotland would not meet the criteria on day one, could not join the Euro for several years, even if it wanted to, because it would need to establish its own Central Bank, and provide several years worth of GDP and other fiscal data before it could even start the process. In short, in or out of the Euro is a complete red herring, something that would be for a Scottish Government to decide (maybe have a referendum ) 10 years or more down the line.

A sudden thought while writing this - it occurs to me that if Scotland remains in the EU when rUK leaves, then Scotland will have the whole of the EU as powerful allies on their side during the negotiations to divvy up the UK assets (including the Bank of England).

If Scotland remains in the EU, it would also solve the English language problem. English is a 'de facto' common language of the EU, but soon no EU country will have English as an official EU language, unless Ireland and Malta can be persuaded to change.

Ireland is going to be an issue anyway, because the EU says there can't be a hard border between the Republic and Northern Ireland.

(Just a random thought.)

FarNorth said: I think the SNP didn't get their facts clear enough in 2014 because, to begin with, they didn't think they could win and were happy just to be making a point. I think they were very surprised by the way support took off

As I have said a trillion times the SNP were only, an admittedly large, part of the Yes campaign. I believe that the facts were clearly stated but endlessly distorted by the Unionist press and media. Studies have shown that the generations who get their information via the alternative internet media voted decisively for Yes whereas the older generation, who rely on traditional newspapers and the BBC, were mainly NO voters.

As an active campaigner for Independence since childhood and an SNP member for 42 years I can assure you that there was a total commitment to winning the referendum. It was seen as our first opportunity in a lifetime to achieve our main aim. There was no suggestion, at any level within the Party, that we were merely trying to 'make a point'. What point do you mean? and who was it trying to impress? There was simply no reason to try to frighten the Westminster Parliament into making concessions to Scotland as we knew only too well that any promises made during the campaign by the NO side would be immediately forgotten if NO won.

Varian and others are castigating the Greens and accusing them of dirty dealings behind closed doors. I totally refute that on behalf of my many good friends in the Scottish Greens - many of whom joined the SGP in the aftermath of the Scottish Referendum, precisely because of their commitment to Scottish Independence. To drag up a speech from 2.5 years ago i.e. before the Scottish Parliament Elections (which the Greens fought as a pro-Indy Party) and the Brexit referendum (when the Europhile Greens campaigned for remain) is disingenuous to say the least. Why not quote from Patrick Harvie's speech during the referendum debate in the Scottish Parliament?

I don't think anyone, even me, has much of an appetite for another election, referendum, or anything political at the moment but when your Country's voice (62/38% for remain) has been arrogantly dismissed and ignored and you are faced with the prospect of being ruled by a party with only one Scottish MP for the foreseeable future then you have to bite the bullet and take decisive action. No one is calling for a referendum NOW but to be effective it has to be before Brexit is signed, sealed and irrevocable. It is a chance for the people in Scotland to make a well informed choice.

I find it hard to understand the mind set of people who object so strongly to having elections or referenda thrust upon them. After all we are perfectly entitled to ignore campaigns and not vote, or to have our minds firmly made up, ignore the campaigning and media hype, throw the leaflets in the bucket and simply take 5 minutes to tick a box - job done. I have friends who talk politics constantly, friends who never raise the subject but talk about loads of other interesting things, and friends and family who do a bit of both - just like Gransnet really.

Roses I think that anyone who currently lives in Scotland (and will therefore be affected by any decisions made) and has taken the trouble to register on the Electoral Roll as a resident should have a vote. This is civic nationalism, nothing to do with ethnicity, all to do with everyone currently resident in the country. Anyone temporarily resident elsewhere in the UK or even abroad has the right to register as an absent voter and vote by post or via a proxy. This is perfectly legal with the proviso that you must not register to vote also at your current temporary address.

Far North by the time the Brexit deal is finalised I would think we will be pretty much at the end of the two year period and on the brink of leaving. Would it be feasible to have an independence referendum and then negotiate complex independence terms (which would surely need to be agreed first) before the UK leaves? Or is your thinking that independence would occur immediately and terms would be hammered out later?

Anyone temporarily resident elsewhere in the UK or even abroad has the right to register as an absent voter and vote by post or via a proxy.

What counts as 'temporary'? My Scottish (by birth) niece who teaches in England was very cross about not getting a vote in the last Indie ref.

A very compelling and well thought out post granny23 (you should be an SNP advisor)
I can see that with things changing ( UK leaving the EU) it makes a new referendum more likely, I suppose the question is do the majority of Scots want another one?
I guess the only way to find out is to have a referendum on the question of another independece referendum.Is that likely to happen?

I further wonder if Scots (generally) would prefer to stay with the UK as an entity, than the EU.I realise that SNP core supporters would, but what about the rest?

Maizie

^Long-term proxy voting is available to people who cannot reasonably be expected to attend their polling station at elections because :

they suffer from a physical incapacity, or
their employment duties take them away from home, or
their attendance on a course of study takes them away from home.
Temporary proxy voting is available to people who cannot reasonably be expected to attend their polling station at elections because they will be away from home temporarily (e.g. on holiday) on the date of the election.^

I think the key word here is HOME. Your niece would have to give a home address in Scotland - perhaps her parent's address. My pal lived at home here with his Mum until he got a job in London on a 2 year contract, rented a tiny flat but remained on the register at his Mum's house. Later he was promoted to a permanent post, married and bought a house near London. Now registered to vote down there. Our neighbours, let out their own house while working on short term contracts in the Gulf (accommodation provided) but arranged proxy votes at their 'home address'. I have also voted as proxy for a merchant seaman who did not trust his Mum or Dad to vote 'the right way'.