Retiring judge warns women who get drunk

The one thing that I would agree with, is that things like that that the judge said probably do or might stop some women reporting it. I dont know for sure.

But what the judge was trying to do was stop some of it happening in the first place, so that there then would be nothing to report.

So what do we do merlotgran, address the issue or educate girls to follow the rules?

Both. It isnt an either or. A lot of things in life are not either or, they are both!

Exactly right Nfkdumpling, women have to take some responsibility for their own safety.

All the judge was saying was 'Be sensible'. If you leave your purse perched loose on top of your shopping bag in full view, you may expect to loose it. It might well get nicked.

If you get drunk out of your skull and stagger around or outside a nightclub in minimal clothing making sexy innuendos you may be sending out the wrong message to inebriated testosterone high men you should perhaps take a small bit of responsibility for what may happen next.

I am female, would i get so drunk that i could safely find my way home? No. Why not ? I may fall over and break a bone or bash my head,i may walk in front of a moving vehicle, i may lose my bag containing my keys and bank card. So if i wont get drunk i case i do any of the above i certainly wont do them i case i am raped or sexually abused. It is my responsibility to keep myself safe. That is all the judge meant

So what do we do merlotgran, address the issue or educate girls to follow the rules? Do we allow the next generation of girls to grow up in this environment or do we challenge it, question it? I am not trying to win argument, I am looking for advice.

Oh come on, Eloethan. Your last paragraph is a bit Utopian.

I'd rather go with, All men are bastards unless they prove otherwise.

Sorry but you can't educate drink!

Any thoughts on the current advertisements? The "disrespect No body" ones? They actually cover the aspect of being drunk and consent.

I think LSP made some valid points. If women truly want to be safe, they won't go out at all. Some years ago, my friend's sister-in-law - a middle aged married woman, not drunk and not wearing a mini skirt - was raped on a London station in the middle of the day.

On an individual and personal basis, I'm sure many parents would urge their daughters (and sons) not to get drunk because it leaves them open to a number of risks. I think that is slightly different from a high profile judge making this sort of public pronouncement, which seems to me to send out the wrong message by signalling that a woman can be held partly responsible for being attacked.

If we want men to behave properly towards women then I feel the emphasis should be on the man's behaviour. It should be stressed over and over again that it is the opposite of being manly or "one of the lads" to force yourself on a woman who is drunk - it is something that only a pathetic, inadequate bully would do.

LSP Do you seriously think that some drunken moron is going to think back to when somebody tried to educate him as to whether the girl he's about to rape might or might not have given consent?

A serious rapist wouldn't give a shit

I would address the issue. Who is raping, why are they having sex with people without their consent? I think that people should understand consent, maybe through education, teach what consent is as some people find it difficult.

Porn, this has to be tackled, I am pro sex but most porn is vile and misogynistic, and it's what children are consuming,.

That needs addressing.

What would you do Jalima?

Ps how would you deal with it LSP?

I thought the post by LSP was pretty funny to be honest, it has to be tongue in cheek. As for what the Judge said. I agree with her. Of course it is not the Women's fault, but common sense, and decency should reign here. Is it ever good sense or in fact decent to get rolling drunk? I think not

LSP has the right idea. Any man going for a night out should be given that 10 point list, sign it and proclaim on his honour not to molest any woman who may incapable because it is her right to get paralytic on drink and drugs and stagger about alone and not take responsibility for herself.

There would be no need for warnings because every man would then behave honourably.

Men are physically stronger and drink can make them sexually aroused and violent. That's a fact.

Not all men, of course.

In times of war - invading hordes etc., etc., women had to try and protect themselves because they knew what was in store and it didn't bear thinking about.

Nowadays they deliberately put themselves at risk. I'm not saying they should be blamed instead of the rapist - far from it but drink is a great leveller and that's a level they shouldn't sink to if they can possibly avoid it.

Men are more often the victims of male violence Phoenix, way more at risk than girls, though they don't get issued with as much helpful advice as girls do.

Karen, I agree completely, but when do we tackle this, when do we name the problem and deal with it? Does this advice help or is it harmful, that's the bottom line.

LSP I don't disagree with you. Victims should not be blamed. I also hate the current porn culture.. But let's get realistic here... (Certain) men have always abused women.. This is an historical fact and I'm not just referring to rape..I believe that we're getting there, for the main part thanks to the feminist movement, but we're not there yet.... In the meantime, reality dictates that we need to be pragmatic and advise women how to keep themselves safe.

Are men who get very drunk putting themselves at higher risk of getting beaten up?

I fully appreciate that a drunk woman is far more vulnerable than a drunk man, as generally speaking it would be difficult for a woman to "rape" a man, but a man could be raped or assaulted by another man.

I think that women should be able to go about their daily business and not be blamed if they are attacked.

Will these comments do good or will they do harm? Is rape a crime that is reported with a high conviction rate or is it something that women suffer and often blame themselves for?

I honestly feel that her comments will cause harm but that is just my opinion.

All I want is for my beautiful teenage granddaughters to be safe. One is now old enough to drink and the other two not far behind. I applaud the fact that their parents nag them about the perils of getting drunk, I don't care how many people tell me that it's the rapist at fault and not the victim, I don't care about Mumsnet's opinions or anyone else's for that matter. I only care about my own.

The judge was right IMO. This is something that should be shouted loud and clear.

Girls have wanted to be treated like boys for a very long time. The label 'Ladettes' is not a flattering one when they're lying in their own vomit in the gutter with their skirts around their waists. As somebody said upthread, 'Nobody rapes a comatose drunken MAN'

They have to look out for themselves because at that very time when they need somebody....there's nobody there.

These comments against the judge are coming from the Campaign group End Violence Against Women.
The campaign group End Violence Against Women condemned the
“When judges basically blame victims for rape – by suggesting how much alcohol a woman drinks or what she wears is part of what causes rape – we remove the responsibility from the man who did it. That is really alarming.”
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/10/judge-accused-of-victim-blaming-during-sentencing-comments-in-case

A spokesperson for the group said the judge’s comments were “exactly the kind of thing that deters women from reporting assaults. Women understandably think that they will not be believed, or will be blamed for their own attack if they’ve had a drink.

I can understand the concerns about potential "blaming" but End Violence Against Women seem to me to be ignoring the issues about personal responsibilty for people putting themselves in risky situations. AIBU for thinking like that?

Maybe we need to start tackling porn culture and the way women are portrayed in the media? Why are women things to grab, why do we have to curtail our behaviour so we aren't raped?

Why don't women report and why is the conviction rate so low? How long do we have to police women's behaviour?

The problem has been tackled for years. By psychologists, sociologists, biologists, criminologists... even philosophers.. Hopefully we'll get some answers soon.. BUT, in the meantime, nothing wrong with being pragmatic and encouraging women to keep themselves safe.

Karen, i hear ya, I do. I worry that the sound advice contributes to the problem, if you see what I mean?

D'ya know, that's all I'm doing here, naming the problem. Rapists, big problem, what are we going to do about that? When can we expect rapists to stop raping? Do we just teach our girls The Rules or do we tackle the problem?

I want to tackle the problem, to understand why someone would have sex with a woman who is drunk instead of telling women not to drink.