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Retiring judge warns women who get drunk

(227 Posts)
Nelliemoser Sat 11-Mar-17 19:31:50

Telegraph Reporters 11 March 2017 • 10:45am

* A retiring judge has said women are entitled to "drink themselves into the ground" but must be aware of potential rapists.*
In an impassioned sign-off, Lindsey Kushner QC warned girls' "disinhibited behaviour" put them in danger of being raped by men who "gravitate" towards drunken females.

I have just been listening to the radio and I am appalled by the flack this judge is getting. All she did was to state the very bleeding obvious. That getting off your head on drink or drugs is going to make you very vulnerable to attacks or any other sort of exploitation. She did not even hint that she is "blaming" perpetrators.

Now there are parties are objecting to the judges statement and suggesting that this attitude is placing yet more "Blame on the defendants". Not the perpetrators.
I am largely referring to the party ravers who get pissed out of their minds on a weekend.

Yes the perpetrators are always in the wrong. but there has to be a sensible balance here. I worry that those who are complaining about the judges statement are not showing much balance with regard to this issue.

Somewhere along the line someone really does have to clearly state that everyone has to take some responsibility for their own behaviour and decisions.
Like FGS don't go out and get wasted in town on a night out.
This is a really difficult balance. Any thoughts?

Luckygirl Sat 11-Mar-17 19:46:58

Try looking at Mumsnet - all hell has let loose. Apparently the judge is saying that these women are to blame for being raped.

I guess this judge has seen a fair few cases in her career and is trying to give advice for the protection of young women. I am in no doubt that staying in control of your mind when out and about is a sensible way to proceed; and that was certainly the advice my DDs received.

Deedaa Sat 11-Mar-17 19:48:17

In the dark ages, when I was a young woman, we all knew perfectly well that getting paralytic was a bad idea and possibly dangerous. In those days you could rely on most men behaving decently - and most of them would have found a drunk woman very unattractive anyway - but we knew it wasn't worth the risk.

Obviously men shouldn't take advantage of a drunken woman but it does happen. As soon as it becomes clear that you were very drunk it suggests the possibility that you may actually have consented and perhaps changed your mind once sobered up.

rosesarered Sat 11-Mar-17 19:56:44

Agreed, she is stating the bleeding obvious, but did not blame young women at all and remarks have been taken out of context.Who is this idiotic person ( Police Commissioner?) that has decided to take umbrage with the judges words?

rosesarered Sat 11-Mar-17 19:59:20

Perhaps it should also be stated that it would be safer for young women and girls, not to wander around lonley places late at night ( or would that upset some people too?)

Ilovecheese Sat 11-Mar-17 20:10:44

Everybody has to take responsibility for their behaviours and decisions - especially the rapists

Anniebach Sat 11-Mar-17 20:15:55

The judge spike the truth, a drunken female is vunerable , expect the judge has presided over several rape cases so must have heard details of harrowing experiences of rape

Christinefrance Sat 11-Mar-17 20:16:19

Yes the judge said that if women got themselves so drunk they were not in control then there were others who would take advantage of this. Perfectly sensible and obvious why then is she getting slated for saying this. I despair sometimes of people especially those in positions of authority who take it upon themselves to be guardians of our thinking.

Cherrytree59 Sat 11-Mar-17 20:18:37

Each person whatever their sex should have a duty of personal care.

LumpySpacedPrincess Sat 11-Mar-17 20:26:45

Lots of men get completely out of their heads but women seem to be able to restrain themselves from raping them.

When someone is raped, it is the rapists fault, he is the only one responsible. Not the skirt, not the alcohol, not anything at all.

If I see an unconscious man I do not try to have sex with him, if I did then I would be a horrible person, it would not be his fault. Comments like this suggest that it is women's job to keep themselves safe and they are partially responsible if they are raped.

This is dangerous, most rapists are men that women know, friends and colleagues etc and nothing would keep them safe.

Badenkate Sat 11-Mar-17 20:39:32

From what I have understood, she was at great pains to make it clear that she was not putting any blame on the woman. Basically she was saying that there are some very nasty people out there, and women should consider that they can make themselves very vulnerable to those people if they become so drunk they are incapable of looking after themselves.

They have, of course, every right to do this if they want and she also made that point. But, as I said, they really should consider the dangers. We all would wish that people who prey on vulnerable victims did not exist, but this is a fact of the big wide world.

ginny Sat 11-Mar-17 20:42:30

In an ideal world any person should be able to feel safe in any situation , drunk or sober. However, we surely have to be sensible and not be naive enough to think that we are.
Of course the perpetrators of any crime are to blame but why make oneself any more vulnerable than need be.

absent Sat 11-Mar-17 20:44:24

Anyone paralytically drunk – of either sex – is vulnerable to all sorts of crime, including robbery, random violence and murder, as well as rape and sexual harassment. The perpetrators of criminal acts are always responsible for committing the crime; the victim is not responsible. Nevertheless, it is wiser to avoid situations, such as paralytic drunkeness which is also extremely bad for the liver, that make you especially vulnerable – male or female – in public places.

LumpySpacedPrincess Sat 11-Mar-17 20:59:17

I get that Baden but it's a bit like saying I'm not being racist but... I'm not blaming women but...

Most women who are raped don't come forward, the conviction rate is appalling.

Comments like these are just more rules on the list for women to follow, don't get drunk, be careful what you wear etc etc etc.

Personally I like these rape prevention tips,

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.
2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.
3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.
4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.
5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.
6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.
7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.
9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.
10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

Badenkate Sat 11-Mar-17 21:14:15

I have tried to write a sensible reply to your post LSP, but quite honestly the whole thing has so stunned me that I've thrown my hands up in disbelief. Where on earth are you coming from?

nina1959 Sat 11-Mar-17 21:16:55

LSP, you need help.

LumpySpacedPrincess Sat 11-Mar-17 21:20:29

I think that when women are raped the fault lies with the rapist, not the victim, that's my position.

Chewbacca Sat 11-Mar-17 21:20:38

I'm just shock at LSP's post. Whatever is the matter with you for heavens sake?

LumpySpacedPrincess Sat 11-Mar-17 21:22:11

What part do you find shock

Chewbacca Sat 11-Mar-17 21:27:30

How about typing out your little aide memoir LSP , and hand it out to both men and women who are "a bit the worst for wear with drink/drugs" and see if it makes an iota of difference to a woman getting raped? As was so succinctly put, further up thread, everybody has the responsibility to ensure that they keep themselves as safe as possible, at all times. Unfortunately, when both men and women get too drunk to be able to look after themselves, they put themselves in danger. and I can't see your handy list of hints and tips helping much either.

nina1959 Sat 11-Mar-17 21:31:47

The judge is stating an unpalatable truth. She's not the only one. Joanna Lumley and Chrissy Hynde have both said the same thing. It's not about the politics of who's to blame. It's a personal safety matter.
Women need to move past this stuck in the mud thinking and realise that the only way to protect themselves is not by expecting moral behaviour from others. They themselves need to be more self preserving by not placing themselves at risk.
For me, the issue of blame doesn't even come into it. It's looking past this and realising that the dangers out there are very real and the best way to stay safe is to do everything possible to take care of yourself.

nina1959 Sat 11-Mar-17 21:32:57

I would also say that the judge should have included both sexes in her comments. Both are vulnerable when they're drunk.

LumpySpacedPrincess Sat 11-Mar-17 21:35:56

It doesn't matter how drunk you get, the person who commits the crime is responsible. We should all take responsibility and not attack drunk people or commit criminal acts. Most people get through their whole lives without attacking someone, drunk or otherwise.

You either believe that rapists are to blame for raping or you believe that the victim has to take responsibility for the crime committed against them.

I believe that the victim is innocent and the attacker is guilty, that's all.

ginny Sat 11-Mar-17 21:36:53

Doesn't it seem that the post by LSP is almost saying men need these rules other wise they will all be rapists? Just as bad as saying all women who get drunk or wear certain clothes are at fault if they are raped. The only answer is respect for yourself and others.

nina1959 Sat 11-Mar-17 21:40:16

We ALL have a responsibility towards our own safety.