Retiring judge warns women who get drunk

The Judge's comments included reference to the fact a woman consented to sex with one man didn't mean his friends could join in. The evidence was clear, the woman consented to sex with the first man, then screamed and said no when his friend had sex with her. He was the rapist who was sentenced to six years.

LSP, I personally know someone who made a false accusation of rape. Her partner had left her and she hoped that this would bring the partner back. She did not even know the man but described someone who had been in the pub that she was in that night. He was arrested and remanded for three months in prison. He lost his home and his job. He found prison traumatic. His life was ruined. She received a 1 year suspended sentence.

Correction, it was one man who raped the girl and he was imprisoned.

She said a woman would be less likely to report a rape "because she was drunk or cannot remember what happened or feels ashamed to deal with it". which means that rapists will get away with it and able to commit a further attack.

I am sure she still believes if a man rapes a woman he should get punished.
Yes, she does MagicWriter because this was part of her summing up in a rape case where a very drunk girl went off with two men and was raped. She was sentencing both men to imprisonment.

While I would expect a man who ran me down with a car to be prosecuted I would also take the precaution of not running into the road in front of him. In the same way while a rapist should be prosecuted I would try not to put myself in a dangerous situation in the first place.

The sad thing is I can remember roaming round SoHo at night when I was a teenager without feeling the slightest bit threatened. Nowadays there are very few places that feel really safe, even in day light.

Rosesarered, Magic writer, good posts. I'm over the debate but I liked your comments and agree.

And Absent too.

The Judge condemned the rapist, pit 100 percent responsibility on the rapist.
LSP I've often wondered whether sex crimes against adults or children should be tried without a jury but I believe that would be wrong. We need debates like the one Judge Kushner's comments have led to. There is an issue of male sexual violence. There is an issue about children getting sex education from pornography via mobiles, resulting in young people being led to believe painful or risky sexual practices are the norm.
It's a much wider debate than whether one good Judge expressed herself in a way that ,most people find acceptable

Good post MagicWriter

absent's definition - "without consent" - that is the hardest part to prove. Especially if either party was drunk.

No one has said women should go out and get drunk MagicWriter2016 simply that in doing so they are not and should not be accused of inviting men to rape them. It is a perpetuation of the concept that men cannot control themselves and therefore women must adapt their behaviour to accommodate this. The ultimate end of this idea is of course the veiling and separating of women from men, but the idea is still enshrined in the concept that women must be responsible and not men and that in getting drunk the woman is in some way inviting an attack. The judge probably didn't mean this but she certainly didn't condemn men, instead she warned women. It didn't help.

Rape can be committed only by a man, but men can – and are – victims too under English law. (I don't know about Scottish laws.) It is defined as penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by a penis without consent. Men have two out of three of those orifices and have suffered rape. Penetration with an object, usually perpetrated by men but, obviously, women are also capable, is not classed as rape but again is not uncommon especially as a sexual crime against young gay men. Men are often even more unwilling to report rape and severe sexual violence than women and doubly so if they were drunk or otherwise in a particularly vulnerable situation. It behoves both sexes to watch out for themselves and their friends. It behoves society to educate their boys and young men and to take a serious look at its attitudes towards women.

After reading some of these comments I think that yes, rapists are responsible when a woman gets raped. But my perspective on the whole thing is that a lot of young women today seem to have no respect for themselves. Having seen and heard some of them when they go out their behaviour is unbelievable. Trying not to be sexist, but young men have always had a reputation for being loud, brash and uninhibited in their behaviour when drunk eg bare bums are a major source of humour for them and so on. But girls would keep a certain amount of decorum in their behaviour. But now, it seems that the girls want to outdo the boys on who can behave the worst. Is it any wonder men get mixed messages and sadly, where the majority of men can control their urges and realise that non consensual sex is a big no go, there are some guys out there who will take advantage of the women's behaviour. It makes me sad to see women behaving like they do and I really hope in the future my own granddaughters will respect themselves more than I sometimes see. So, I think this judges warnings are what is needed and I am sure she still believes if a man rapes a woman he should get punished.

I am laughing at some of the posts who criticise this sensible judges remarks.They are a collection of 'right on' 'feminist claptrap.
There is no 'casual acceptance' on this thread of rapists.Yes, you can be unlucky enough to be attacked and raped in broad daylight when stone cold sober, but far more attacks/rapes are carried out at night, on the streets, in cars, at parties etc.
Drunken women get into cars thinking they are a taxi, or go off with men who offer a lift.If you are falling down drunk then you are not able to do anything for your own safety, as a man or a woman.
Forgets 'rights' and think safety.

Would some crimes be better without a jury, say three judges and they judge it based solely on the law and the evidence lam?

Ankers, the Judge's comments imo weren't intended to dismiss rape allegations but to,point out that juries are often reluctant to convict, that's one of the difficult realities, that juries are supposed to reflect the view of the person in the street. They do, unfortunately LSP is right In her criticism of the negative women blaming approach taken by so many people. I do not include Judge Kushner in that group.

I like it over here Ana, though I do hang out on the Other Side too!

Too true sweetcakes, the fact that women still voted for him made me so cross.

Agree to differ it is then!

But rape still happens in deeply conservative countries so following the rules doesn't seem to protect women. Of course in their countries there will be a whole other set of rules too, there are always rules for women to follow yet they still keep getting raped.

Different countries have different all sorts of things really. Not sure how much can be learnt from that, if anything really.

I presume you are not expecting rape figures to ever be zero.

The judge also said this
^Drunk girls and women were "less likely to fight a man with evil intentions off" and they were also less likely to report an attack because they may not be able to remember what happened or "if push comes to shove, a girl who has been drunk is less likely to be believed than one who is sober at the time".

That is not going to help conviction rates.

LSP your reference to Trump is warranted the trouble with him is power and money he has it all and what annoyed me was when it was disclosed women still voted for him!! Go finger what's can you do, but I digress I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Surely, LSP, you are a member of MN as well? Perhaps there's a bit less competition over here!

I had a quick look on Mumsnet. I don't spend much time on forums and I'm not a member of MN but I can see that largely they agree the judges comments were balanced. She's been backed in parliament today.

The amount of false rape claims is tiny, it's minuscule compared to the amount of women who are raped and sexually assaulted. As for ruining a mans life, Trump has had claims made against him, some by a child and I don't see his life being ruined. I see women who make claims being hounded and stalked though.

trisher
Why would you want her to have a word? she wanted to put her opinion over just like you and I've always encouraged my children to have their say.
And you know what rape is not always black and white there are women out there that have cried rape and it hasn't been true and they've been proven to have lied but not before they have ruined a young man's life, so before you blame the judge for her comment how about looking to those women who have made it difficult for those who have genuinely been raped and now feel that they won't be believed

But rape still happens in deeply conservative countries so following the rules doesn't seem to protect women. Of course in their countries there will be a whole other set of rules too, there are always rules for women to follow yet they still keep getting raped.