Scottish Referendum Autumn 2018 - Spring 2019

Granny23 I remember your presentation at the Edinburgh meet up, and I do remember that feelings ran high.
But I honestly don't remember anyone booing you off.

On a separate thread I have noted Paddyann's use of capitals, extreme dogmatism in her argument and a resurgence of the plain bonkers stuff that we were fed last time around about the Bank of England and other such idiot claims

Out of interest, are there other people who make the same financial claims?

Excellent post Pollaidh and so very true. For you poor people to have to suffer yet another devisive referendum with all that entails to decide whether you go from one 'master' to another, and the heartache this will inevitably cause, so soon after the last one, seems almost cruel. I personally would rather throw in my lot with a Tory government at Westminster than the increasing threat of right-wing governments in Europe, (the devil you know comes to mind), I really do feel for you. Excessive nationalism is very dangerous and can be how wars start.

I have lived in Scotland for over 30 years and am hugely distressed at this threat to re-run the independence referendum. It just about tore our family apart last time and we were just beginning to heal. For my part I voted "no" last time and, in spite of Brexit, intend to do so again. I have turned the issue over many times and still come to that conclusion. What we (in theory at least) have before us is a binary choice between two unions: EU or UK. Although I voted firmly to remain in the EU referendum my choice of union will be with the UK, with whom we share a language, a land border, a currency, many values, much trade and a great deal of hard infrastructure. It is debatable whether the EU will support the smooth transition of Scotland as an independent state, but highly likely that many conditions (the Euro, free movement of people for example) would be imposed. Scotland does not share a language, land border, currency or hard infrastructure with the EU. As for values, the EU countries are showing clear signs of moving to the far right - not a club I wish to join. I sincerely regret this time of government by referenda. Where the balance of opinion is so fine - there is no overwhelming majority - there is bound to be huge bitter divisiveness, as we witnessed in 2014. On a separate thread I have noted Paddyann's use of capitals, extreme dogmatism in her argument and a resurgence of the plain bonkers stuff that we were fed last time around about the Bank of England and other such idiot claims.England and Scotland have far more in common than what divides us. Separatism and Nationalism thrive on the villification of "the other". This is not a world I want.

rar the weather isn't all that good here anyway! We are as far North as the Western side of the border so it is about the same. Just need a straighter border line and we're Scots!

So true Thingmajig!

By far the worst aspect of that Brexit vote is the constant threat of the indyref2!!! I'm not into politics at all, but just cannot see the economic case for independence ... how on earth can the SNP make the sums work, specially given the virtual collapse of their precious oil industry that was their single saving grace (in their eyes) last time round?

Jalima Perhaps I worded it badly - I was referring to Gill calling every pro-Independence post a 'hysterical rant'.

It is so frustrating for those of us who are committed to achieving Independence for our beloved Country and have the FACTS and figures at our fingertips, (gleaned from independent sources without a political agenda) to constantly attempt to rebut claims based on an article in the Guardian, the Telegraph etc. Remember that ALL the major Newspapers (and the BBC which has preservation of the unity of the UK in its charter) have a Unionist agenda whether of the right or left.

I prefer to find the FACTS direct from sources such as official government and industry reports and statistics, rather than learn them filtered by 'hysterical headlines' in the MSM who deal in sensationalised, so called journalism, focusing on and misrepresenting a minor point, without reporting the caveats or wider picture. We see this tendency in the reporting of medical breakthroughs when we are told we are all going to die/live because of a minor change in our diet or lifestyle. If you apply a measure of common sense and reasoning to these claims it is easy to see that these facts are being misrepresented to push a certain agenda.

One of my regular sources is the oil industry's own journals. There I find information about the extensive oil fields found to the west of Shetland and in the Firth of Clyde. I learn that the oil companies are content to let the oil stay where it is (it won't go away or evaporate) until the oil price rises and it becomes worth their while to extract it. Of course they, also, have an agenda and deliberately underestimate their existing and potential assets in hopes of a subsidy or tax break from the Government to 'tide them over'.

Another good source is The Financial Times and other financial journals where I have seen several reports indicating that the financial sector would welcome a Scotland still in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves, as they could more easily relocate to Edinburgh than Paris or Frankfurt, which would mean a significant boost to the Scottish economy.

I remember the last Scottish referendum when I was posting day and night on Gransnet, countering misinformation, suffering endless accusations of being anti-English, swallowing personal insults about good friends who happen to be politicians and culminating in being boo'ed off while speaking at a Gransnet Meet Up. I see that Paddyanne has taken the brunt of the ridicule this time and is already minded to retire from the front line. Personally, I no longer have the time, energy or inclination to respond to every comment, so I shall leave it to the anti-Independence posters (and the MSM and T May) to convert undecided voters to the Independence cause by decrying this ancient Nation, its people and its right to self determination with every post.

Well,if true, that will certainly complicate matters!!!!!!!!

'their' not they're

Jayanna9040, probably not. They believe their history is different to the Scottish mainland and their genes too. I remember I stayed on Hoy for a few days and was corrected about this topic. Not that I'm an expert but they were very adamant that they're roots are not Scottish.
Mind you we can all say we're not Germanic in origin. But we are.

But pretty central to the Scottish economy if Scotland goes independent. Can they say we're not part of this?

Jayanna9040, the Orcadians and Shetlanders see themselves as being more Nordic than Scottish.

Some acquaintances in the Shetlands said that they do not consider themselves part of Scotland and will remain with what is left of the UK If Scotland becomes independent. Does anyone know if this is general opinion in the Shetlands? Any Shetlanders on GN? How does it sit from a constitutional point of view? I didn't feel I knew them well enough to pursue the point.

Gill and her hysterical rants
Is that a typo G23?

Do you mean paddyann's hysterical rants?

(That is a genuine question btw)

with the attitude of some on here you'd think you'd be delighted to get rid of us
Well, you are showing a remarkable degree of self-awareness paddyann

The Scots I know are reasonable people (well, mainly!) - as are the ones on here whichever side they favour.
Will Scottish people living in the rest of the UK get a vote this time?

Alex Salmond pledged there would be no second referendum "for a generation" even if he lost by one vote
(Guardian)

I agree Gill The ludicrously over-represented SNP (who go half as many votes as the Liberal Democrats but seven times as many seats) do not do a good job in the HoC.

Even more to the point they have made the most appalling mess of running Scotland. Look at the state of Scottish education, NHS or the chaos of the centralised police service.

All they care about is destroying the United Kingdom at any cost.

paddyann you mentioned Malta as an example of comparison to Scotland on your thread about Scottish independence and I thought it was explained clearly on that thread that Malta was not, never was, part of the United Kingdom.

Granny23. I totally agree with your sentiments about royal yachts, HS2, Trident etc., but I didn't vote for those things either, I don't want a new royal yacht docked beside food banks anymore than you do, but I honestly do not understand how breaking away from the UK, with all that involves, is going to lead to an independant Scotland full of milk and honey. I do get angry, and do get irate sometimes on here because there are some ( not you) who misquote economic figures and make all sorts of silly and offensive anti English rants to justify their view point. This country, the UK is in a bloody mess, a mess exacerbated by the Brexit decision, and we really all need to stay together. I admire Ms Sturgeon's passion for her aim, I admire her tenacity, but I wish she would put it to better use, maybe telling Mrs May that food banks are not acceptable, that we don't need or want HS2, don't want or need the Chinese to build nuclear power stations, the SNP is a significant part of the opposition in Parliament, and I wish they would act as such, for all of us. She has her platform now, and I wish she would use it better.

I meant a legal language of the U.K.

Wales is a country with her language mlegally a language if the UK, she has a national anthem not a song under the pretence of being a national anthem .

Wales is a country

In my opinion Brexit will be a disaster.

Scexit would pile chaos on top of disaster.

It may be too late to prevent Brexit but if you have a say in Scexit, please, please reject it.

I understood that ' once in a generation' meant in the life of a human being not of a hamster!!!!

The UK is going to become Brexit?That doesn't make sense.The UK will be leaving the mess of the EU to make our own deals,both with the EU ( if offered a good deal) and other countries.We will still be the UK, and Scotland will still be selling more to the rest of the UK than to anywhere else.All this about the Queens yacht/house etc doesn't make sense either, as Scotland along with the rest of the UK has been paying for the Royal Family since year dot.So that so called 'calm piece' was also written, not only by somebody who wants independence but is a rebublican.I also never get all the outrage about Westminster, I used to live in Cornwall, that's a long way from Westminster too, but so what, we are all living in The United Kingdom ( the clue is in the words.)

I know Jane10 and I apologise to you and everyone who thinks like you for my unwarranted outburst of temper. Bottom line people like me don't want you to go, but if you feel you must at least wait and see what the deal is then weigh up the pros and cons for Scotland, and if you feel you would be better away from the rest of us, so be it. Again apologies.