Open Britain - Hard Brexit

Well said Roses! I didn't realise there were so many political experts on this forum. They should all be MP's

In the 1970s Marieeliz, we were known as the sick man of Europe. Inflation was running at over 10%, we had had to borrow from the IMF and the pound had been devalued. I can remember interest rates of 15%, trade with the Commonwealth was dropping significantly and unemployment was growing. So I certainly don't want to go back there!

^ although I sometimes wonder why we bothered with freeing Europe in the first place.^

You WHAT?

I don't believe I'm reading that...

How can we look at limiting EU immigration when it looks very much as if countries with whom we would like to make trade deals post Brexit would like more immigration for their citizens as part of the deal? It's rob Peter to pay Paul and we won't end up with any few immigrants.

Please remember that most of what is being said in the EU today is huff and puff, bullying and hypocrisy. Already German manufacturers are putting extreme pressure on Merkel not to be difficult as they know they have a lot to lose and if we are pushed into a hard brexit then it could well be that Germany will suffer the most. I read the German papers and I know there is a lot of concern about the effect on Germany when we go. The French have quite a lot to lose as well - if they put tariffs on their wine and dairy products, then they will lose the market as we turn to Chile, South Africa, California etc for our wine.
The "dangers" we face are as NOTHING compared to the dangers our parents faced in 1939 although I sometimes wonder why we bothered with freeing Europe in the first place.
It is no good expecting Theresa May to set out chapter and verse before Art 50 is even invoked - as any negotiator knows you don't give anything away until you are sitting around the table and then you negotiate.

Isn't the EU falling apart anyway? Aren't we just the first rats off the sinking ship?

I just hope we're not going to end up at war with each other.

I'm a fairly dispassionate Remainer. The idea that the passionate set should just accept the inevitable is daft - passionate people don't do that, and why should they? But for me, it's clear now that it will happen, so I'm working on the basis that we'll have to make the best of it. I certainly don't believe we are on our way to oblivion.
DJ - just noticed your earlier response to my suggestion that the EU were being intransigent. I fully agree that TM and co are being equally intransigent. It's these ridiculous "set in concrete" positions that could easily lead us into a wholly avoidable super-hard/no deal Brexit. Surely some sort of compromise with perhaps limited Year on Year immigration and a sensible deal on free trade should be possible? Something soft enough to really annoy Farage but hard enough to ensure we can still see a bit of steam coming out of Clegg's ears.

P.P.S. things were pretty grim in the 1970s.

P.S. I had not taken much notice at the time (to my shame)...but in 2012 the EU had been awarded the Nobel Peace prize for decades of peace, stability and human rights....just a thought.

Everything electrical in my kitchen is German why would they not want to make a deal with us. I am sick of these looser's carrying on. It was a referendum and you lost. We existed fine before "The single Market" which is what we all voted for in 1974. Not a large state run by Germany. They didn't win the war but they certainly won the peace.

I anticipate many difficult times ahead, over a considerable period of time. Possibly, eventually things will come right but I'm not holding my breath.

Don't believe what you see on buses!

Here we go AGAIN

My referendum party was a bit ad hock because I didn't think we were going to win the vote. But my ' Invoke Aricle 50' Party has been planned for some weeks.
I take it that many of you don't want an invite

Well, Jaycee, roses and the rest of you Happy Leavers. I don't happen to like the prospect of the world that your vote has tipped us into. We appear to be negative because there is nothing at all to be positive about. Most experts and most of the rest of the world think we're completely bonkers. That's a really horrid thought I'll be carrying around when I go to France in a few weeks time and Portugal a bit later on.

Leaping off a cliff is a challenge and some people relish challenges? Give me strength. An awful lot of people hate challenges which are likely to end in death and no amount of Brown Owl bossiness is going to persuade them otherwise.

quite frankly i'm fed up with brexit this and brexit that ......... despite all these "experts" and their dire warnings of what MIGHT happen NOBODY KNOWS what WILL happen as we are the first country to leave the eu - only time will tell.

I think we have to be honest here....all those noisy Leaver politicians just wanted to shake things up a bit....scare Gov into taking notice .....did they really want to win? I am not sure. Strange how the noisiest ones are now nowhere to be seen. I am dreading turning the news on. God help our children and Grandchildren.

And as for asking us remainers to just shut up.....beyond belief....we do not want to leave.....we are perfectly entitled to keep up the pressure if we really believe its a disaster. Its called politics and its an ongoing thing open to debate and protest. If you think something is going horribly wrong with your country you want to keep up the pressure not just sit back and let it happen.

To be honest I've read insults on both sides, and I hate the division and fury this has caused. People dont seem capable of arguing logically and courteously. The times I've read comments about 'remoaners' from Brexiteers! I consider that an insult and I'm tired of hearing words to the effect that 'you lost, get over it' which sounds like jeering to me,
I am not speaking specifically about this website by the way,

I never quite understand the point of these threads. From what I read all they seem to generate is ill feeling, bitterness, anxiety and a kind of 'know it all' attitude. At the end of the day not one of us (even PMs and negotiators) KNOWS the outcome. As with life we will just have to deal with each aspect that affects us in our own way. I think it's called adapt and survive. I'm neither negative or positive just soldiering along somewhere in the middle. Where is my glass ball?! I well remember my family being anxious about joining the EU. My Mum reckoned we only wanted in ultimately because we had been rejected twice and there was huge ego involved. Mmmmmmmm.......

The should be ...spread negativity and pessimism ...

whitewave. If you haven't read the continually verbal abuse of Leave voters, try reading the BTL comments on the Guardian (the website rather than fb) under any article even barely relating to Brexit.
I have heard no arguments from Remain except:
(a) if you voted Leave you are a racist moron. Also old and you will die soon so your vote shouldn't count;
(b) the £350 million promise was a lie (it has to be reworded to make it a promise, it was simply saying that we won't have to keep paying in, it was on the side of a bloody bus - facecream doesn't turn back the clock either like buses tell you it will, only Remain voters seem to have believed it and seem unable to talk about anything else).
(c) we are leaping off a cliff. Actually it is a challenge and some people relish challenges.
(d) we won't be able to travel any more or work in Europe which is so patently wrong that you have to wonder how Remain voters believe so easily that they are the clever side.
If you do give a detailed explanation of what is wrong with the EU and what you think should be better (like the possibility of fairer trade with poorer countries, particularly those in Africa) all you get is - come on, you say that but lie die with dogs you get fleas or similar nonsense.
I am with rosesared and mia1959 on this. Why should Leave voters have to continually justify their vote?
Why should it be ok for Remain voters to continually talk the country down and spread negativity and positivity?
The Country needs to come together. The Tories have spread enough divisions before the referendum even took place. That cannot happen until Remain cut the insults.

Excellent post, gill, echoing my thoughts too but probably more eloquently!

I agree. Cameron is reponsible for this mess. So-called remainers May and Corbyn have let us down but Tim Farron is giving a lead.

Hear hear gill

Cindersad eloquently and well put. This government is not up to the job, and as for the opposition, well I am without words. I sit watching fools like David Davis wittering on, avoiding questions, grinning inanely, and wonder how we got where we are? How is this man in charge of my future? This is going to be a bloody disaster and I am beyond furious with David Cameron who started this fiasco, refused to even countenance defeat (thus not allowing the Civil Service to even start calculating the implications of leaving), and then just walked off into the highly paid sunset. DC should be called to account, as should the weakling Corbyn, they were all too concerned with their own careers, with their own necks, to notice just what was happening. A curse on all their houses. Although he is obviously a controversial character, to put it mildly, we need Tony Blair to join forces with John Major and others, and to stand up and tell it as it is. It may not change the result, but maybe minimise the damage. I really fear for a future out of Europe, with the madman Trump as our ally with all his bigotry, ignorance and offensive behaviour. Can you imagine being stuck here in England and wales with a Scottish border, out of Europe, borders in Ireland, extortionate import tarrifs, food banks.....well, I suppose we will have taken back control as they say.

Those who voted Remain, and those who voted to leave but did not vote for a hard brexit should not quietly acquiecse in allowing our country to go down this path. We should and must fight back.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/parliament-article-50-lib-dems-opposition-brexit