Article 50 trigger 29th March

That's the one! Thank you Niggly. I knew there was a Churchill quote that fitted the bill exactly. But I couldn't remember it.

France and Germany would have 25 other sovereign governments to persuade of the desirability of that. I don't think it would be an easy task given strong Nationalistic sentiment in most countries and their historic experience of being dominated by other countries. I can't see Eastern European EU members who have so recently broken free of the USSR being willing to be fully absorbed into another political federation. Though I'm happy to admit that I might be entirely mistaken.

Seems to be some disagreement on this thread as to whether Churchill's views are valid today...

But It is happening Mazie. Slowly, slowly. Ever since WW2. First the Common Market then, slowly, slowly. Open borders. Slowly, slowly. One currency. Slowly, slowly. European high court. Slowly, slowly. Dutch Army 'merges' with German. Slowly, slowly ....

NfkDumpling where is your evidence that France wants to become part of one big European bloc? I live in France, I watch French television, I follow politics closely and I talk to lots of French people. I have never heard anyone say that. The French are deeply patriotic, they support their own producers and manufacturers far more than the British do in my experience.
Where are you getting this idea from?

Churchill was famous for being pragmatic and changing his mind. He was a brilliant wordsmith and didn't hold back from saying what he thought.

It's generally accepted that he did want a united Western Europe as a defence against communism, about which he never changed his mind.

However, Churchill saw the UK as the leader of a united Europe. He knew that the Empire was doomed and thought the UK would have the same kind of relationship with mainland Europe, which had been devastated by WW2. He didn't know that France and Germany would get their acts together much more quickly than the UK did. The two countries had been historic enemies for centuries and it was a blow to him that they managed to come to a working relationship, without losing their national identities.

Although he was uncharacteristically quiet in his later years about the Common Market, he did express regret that the UK didn't get involved from the very beginning, because he saw the benefit to France and Germany.

The reason I quoted part of Churchill's speech was because Barnier himself quoted the great former British PM in his speech last week.

I think Churchill is still relevant, because after WW2, the UK played an important part in the formation of the European Convention of Human Rights and the Constitution of the New Federal Republic of Germany, both of which have contributed the peace we've experienced over the last 70 years. The EU regards him as one of their unofficial "founding fathers". I'm proud of my country's heritage and I'm sad that we seem to have forgotten our hopes and aspirations.

So what, Nfk? What's your problem? And why do you think leaving the EU is such a great idea?

Slowly, indeed, Nfk.

It's taken 60 years for 19 countries to change to the Euro, 2 countries to co-operate with defence, 22 countries to agree to Schengen (though a number of non-Eu member countries clearly think it's a good thing, too). The European Court of Justice is for settling trade disputes, other trading blocs have their own dispute resolution arrangements so we wouldn't be free of them. Or are you confusing it with the European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU? And wasn't the Common Market a 'Good Thing' (as lots of Leave voters have told us on here, fine with the EC but not with the EU?)

At this rate of progress I reckon that we'll not only be long gone, but also our grandchildren, by the time the idea of Europe as a country becomes a reality (if it ever does)

History will, I have no doubt, view this as the biggest mistake that a democratic country has ever made, wars excepted.
I feel sorry for the people who voted to leave as they are never going to see the ephemeral rosy future that they think they we are heading towards. Only a long period of economic decline with ever declining pubic services.
Also young people who are going to have opportunities denied them and economic hard times for the next few decades.
It's going to take at least 10 years to get to the end of the beginning. Heaven help us.
I would hate to leave, but it's more than possible Ireland or New Zealand would have us.

Isn't it awful that so many people feel like this ? - however bad things have seemed before with all sorts going on with strikes and balance of payments or whatever it has never seemed such a downward slope. I hope we are just proved so wrong or it will be so awful for our children and grandchildren.

I see it as a great opportunity for this country! There's a world out there and its high time this country found its feet again instead of hiding behind the EU for all its needs. True our politicians will have to learn to govern again after 40 dependent years, but they should be able to manage it particularly with the excellent leader we have in Mrs May. I view it with eager anticipation and untold opportunity.

Oh there is so much that is wrong with that nn

Germany has an enormous amount of independent trade deals both with China and India? That hasn't stopped them nor should it have stopped us. Opportunity and was never something that the EU inhibited.

Politicians learn to govern?????? What on earth do you mean.

Excellent leader -blimey news to many

WW

It actually was not UK democracy!
In the UK we vote for MPs to make key decisions for us in Parliament.

This EU decision was based on a badly constructed plebiscite. The poll to test the feeling of the electorate showed that the country was pretty much split in half over the question that was posed. It was not an overwhelming landslide but a 2% majority of less than 3/4 of the electorate.

It would have been prudent for any government to consider the 48% who were not in favour of leaving the EU,and to have used the referendum result as a bargaining tool to instigate changes to the things that clearly need reforming to make the EU a more effective social and economic union.
I believe this would have been welcomed and supported by other Euro nations and UK could have become a stronger player in Europe rather than its future as Billy no mates!

I get the feeling that Europe as a country, as an idea has now been put on the back burner. The future of the EU without the Uk will take up most of the discussion time.

The business with farming was the fact that in the beginning the Uk had huge farms and they were often owned by landed gentry with Lord this and Lady that owning huge areas of land.
Germany and France are not like that. Thats why a lot of farming politics tended to favour the smaller farmer.They wanted to keep the home food production going. All this was decided upon in the years when the Uk was not a member.

What Yorkshire writes is so anti Europe or Anti German.
Why? WE have all moved on since 1945.
Does she/he realise that the Documentation of beef herds was caused by the UK feeding animal protein to cattle. That was some bureaucracy we all could have done without.

I can hardly bear to listen to the 'head girl' speeches of Ms May. Who on earth writes them. I don't believe a word she says.

I cannot understand how they think that the UK will have back a fishing industry when most of the fish in UK water was overfished and in short supply. At the moment most of the fish caught by UK fishermen is of the shellfish variety and has a ready market in the EU where there is a great demand for it and the UK in return has a lot of fish caught by EU fishermen.

I hope that the UK never signs a trade agreement for great quantities of Chines fish from their dirty waters. I always carefully read the labels on fish and never buy any from Vietnam etc as much of it is farmed in dirty rivers. I stick to Atlantic waters.
I remember the good old days of the herring on the Dogger Bank!

I agree about Theresa May's supercilious headgirl way of speaking MargaretX. I shouldn't think it goes down very well with the EU countries. We're supposed to be negotiating not telling the EU that we're superior to them.

The referendum was wrongly conceived and constructed. In the first place it should never have happened at all and DC was quite wrong to do this; in the second place a necessary margin should have been set so that the close run result that we had would not have been binding - it leaves a sense of division and uncertainty about the result.

But....here we are - we have to throw ourselves into doing the best we can to get the best deal. We cannot turn the clock back. I think TM recognises that - I have no sympathy for her and her party, but what else could she do? Announce that she was refusing to honour the result? - hardly - there would have been chaos.

We cannot move forward with this unrelenting doom and gloom mongering - it does not gain us anything at all and weakens our negotiating hand.

I do love the intelligent discussions on Gransnet. In so many other places (twitter, Facebook, newspaper websites) it's just abuse. Four letter words mixed with "The will of the People", "We won get over it" etc etc.

Well done Theresa May!! I thought you were brilliant today on Prime Ministers question time!!!

MargaretX I agree with your post, especially about farming, and TM's style of speaking.
The trouble is, the current trend for nations to become more individual and assertive could be a threat to the original need to bind Europe together.
People forget, it was to protect against the same nationalism which led to wars.

Well said nigglynellie, at last Article 50 has been triggered in the safe hands of PM Theresa May. Celebrating with a glass of wine.
MargaretX why listen to Theresa May then you don't live over here you have nothing positive to say about Britain only negatives.

Germany and France are not like that. Thats why a lot of farming politics tended to favour the smaller farmer.
I think the reason for small farms, in France at least, was because of the inheritance laws where property had to be divided amongst all the children (or sons?) hence farms got split up and smaller and smaller.

Article 50 was designed for European dictators, not the UK, says man who wrote it

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/article-50-design-dictators-not-uk-eu-european-lisbon-treaty-author-lord-kerr-a7656041.html

Article 50 author Lord Kerr says Brexit not inevitable

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37852628