Article 50 trigger 29th March

Roses start acting like a bunch of spiteful kids. How do you think we are perceived? I would think probably overall more kindly than we deserve.

Niggly Are you seriously suggesting that only foulmouthed, vile, vicious gangs of baying yobs intent on causing as much fear and grievous bodily harm as they can on innocent bystanders are the only people that can 'love' their country and feel proud of its achievements?

I am obviously not the only one who can misread posts. That is certainly not what I said however much you want it to be.

Love, like, are fond of etc. Most people just do, JessM wherever they come from.
There is no obligation to, and those who don't like their own countries usually go and find one to live in that they prefer ( perhaps they could then say they love that country.)

What, varian, and give up my Trotskyite credentials?
Annie would never believe it!

Why "should" we love our country just because of an accident of birth?

Why not dj? Turn into a LibDem. You know it makes sense.

Oh! The longer this goes on the worse it gets.

I agree with Vince Cable.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/india-britain-trade-charm-offensive-business-neighbours

If I'm not careful, I'll turn into a Libdem.

The Scots are, the clue is in the name of their government, and nobody minds, in fact they consider it a matter of pride!!

We should all be patriotic, and love our country, but never nationalists, which seems to mean erecting barriers between our country and the rest, whether the rest of the UK, the rest of Europe or the rest of the world.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/03/eu-financial-centres-vie-to-poach-tens-of-thousands-of-city-jobs

www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2017/feb/24/british-academic-immigration-brexit-visa

I didn't know we were having a birthday party. It was the EU that had one, and we weren't invited.

So many people don't want to come here any more. They are leaving by the thousands, particularly from the NHS.
Nice to know you care about the 'lesser' universities, too.
Easy to tell you do not read the news.

roses ? I was using the phrase to draw a parallel, though I would still argue that Europe has more to offer UK in a close alliance.
I am not blind to the faults of the bureaucracy of the EU. It does need reform and streamlining no doubt about that but I do think we are better with a united Europe rather than a disrupted one. There are too many other world powers waiting to pick off countries one by one. I regret we will only see the truth in "united we stand, divided we fall" when countries begin to fall to other powerful nations.

Yes, I have noticed that it's mainly certain English posters who go on about Little Englanders of course there are no Little Welshers or Little Scotlanders etc.
Penstemmon....they were never our good friends to start with! Actually, not friends at all simply business.If Leaders and movers and shakers of industries, and EU bureaucrats start acting like a bunch of spiteful kids not invited to a birthday party then we would be sunk.....but they won't.There will be compromises on both sides.
We punch above our weight in so many areas for a small country ( yes, really!) our financial institutions, our sports, arts and culture, education, journalism, media ( including the Beeb.) to name but a few.Why do so many people want to come and live here?
The top Public Schools and Universities will still attract students here, the lesser ones may struggle to make up numbers ( not sure that is a bad thing).

I like England a lot but I am not particularly proud of it! There are beautiful places that I really enjoy. English people, living and dead,have done some amazing things that are very praiseworthy and who I greatly admire. There are traditions, foods and events that are English that I value and that I would miss hugely if they were not available or around any more. But I am not 'proud to be English' in a nationalistic way..it always sound a bit "my country right or wrong"..but I do not necessarily have allegiance to the various (British) governments over my lifetime, or feel proud of some English individuals who purport to speak for/represent England!

Are you seriously suggesting that only foulmouthed, vile, vicious gangs of baying yobs intent on causing as much fear and grievous bodily harm as they can on innocent bystanders are the only people that can 'love' their country and feel proud of its achievements? Well, I and my family do not even remotely fit that description, but we all love England, and are proud of our country. I agree about the House of Lords though, an anachronism if ever there was one! Amazingly people, who have spent a lifetime or less despising its very existence, are curiously suddenly elevated there! Curiouser and curiouser!!

Thank you dj

Theresa May said today that she doubts she will be able to reach an agreement with the EU in two years. She didn't say that last week when she handed over article 50.

This is what else we are going to lose, as well as having no deal.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-clearing-derivatives-idUKKBN1760WQ

fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

For you, Penstemmon.

Hammond is in India, and May has gone to Saudi Arabia to drum up more business to replace that with the EU.
Her timing couldn't be worse.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/met-police-examine-allegations-saudi-arabia-war-crimes-yemen

This must have been known about before she went, possibly even before it was arranged. Isn't this the second time she's been since she became PM?

Niggly, I think we can be patriotic but we made a mistake in not getting rid of the Lords and having an English Parliament and a UK Parliament. We would then be on more of an even footing.

We could also then recover our view of what Englishness is. I have a feeling we gave it up to be the top dogs in the UK so our own fault if we don't have a real view of what it is. Britishness is about as close as we can get but that is really United Kingdomness.

My feeling of being English is certainly not portrayed by the yobs displayed their love of our country by unprovoked mob-beating of a 17-year-old Iranian-Kurdish asylum-seeker. Sixteen have been arrested but there were estimates of possibly 30 of them attacking this one lad. Obviously we have just seen a display of just how brave and thoughtful we are.

Maybe because of the things that some English people cite as being definitive things to be proud of.
And because English people so often confuse England with Britain and talk as if it's the only show in town.
We get it every day on the BBC - they don't say "the health service in England" they say "the National Health Service" .
Or because looking inward in a self-congratulatory way is seen as smug at best and xenophobic at worst.

No I don't think they would Ana, but then the Welsh are allowed to feel proud of being Welsh despite Brexit. Lucky you annieb at least you can express your love for Wales without being despised and derided. I envy you!

I think I read & understood that we import more from EU than we export..that would be fairly obvious as there are 26 other nations and one GB. Also what we export may well be available from other sources and , because there will not be any reciprocal arrangements, as now, we are likely to lose that 'common' market. Whilst there are other countries to trade with they will be aware that GB is in need of new trading partners and so it will give them the upper hand re trade deals!

Why would anyone, in a group of good friends, want to do me favours when I had told them all I thought they were not worth being special friends with?