Martin McGuinness

A man of vision
He certainly had enough vision to be able to escape justice, unlike others. Was it part of his strategy for peace?

God will judge (if there is a God).

If it was some other organisation that sent troops to NI do tell me who.

Not for a moment do I absolve British governments of their share of responsibility. It's far too simple however to put the blame in one place. I do hope the death of MM doesn't lead to further blAme and polarisation.
I am content the the agreement during the peace process that terrorists could escape prosecution is extended to former service personnel. These once young men lived with the horrors they experienced. If we are letting go and moving on, let that apply to all.

Amazing how some are happy to put blame on the British Government ( for everything in life)
I expect that McGuiness will be canonised any day now.

MawBroon one of the problems is that there are so many victims and many families in Ireland can site past generations where people have been tortured, injured or killed by people who believed the cause they were fighting for. In moving forward and asking others to do the same McGuiness wasn't asking to be forgiven for his past actions, anymore than he was forgiving the violence done to his community, he was simply saying that at some point it had to stop. He wasn't a martyr simply a man of vision who looked to the future.
LadyGracie all the troops who served in NI were treated terribly but it wasn't entirely the fault of the IRA. The British government who put them in such an untenable position and refused to look at peaceful solutions should take responsibility.

Agreed merlotgran. My DH served 5 tours in NI. It turned me grey and in to a chain smoker, imagine what it did to him!

With the understandable exception of Lord Tebbit – a victim, with his wife, of IRA violence – dozens of politicians lined up yesterday to pay tribute to McGuinness’s role in forging a new beginning for Northern Ireland. But it is less easy for the relatives of those killed and maimed to forget the carnage and the grief the IRA caused. When McGuinness reached the apogee of his recantation by dining with the Queen at Windsor castle a few years ago, Victor Barker, whose 12-year-old son James was killed by the 1998 Omagh bomb, commented: “A terrorist in white tie and tails is still a terrorist.” There are many fathers, mothers, children and siblings who feel just as strongly.
But McGuinness was never prosecuted in the UK. Only once was he convicted and jailed and that was in the Republic of Ireland in 1973 when he was arrested near a car containing 250 pounds of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. In court, he unequivocally declared his membership of the Provisional IRA. Undoubtedly he ordered bomb attacks and murders.
We can only hope that the good work of the Peace Process survives the strong feelings that MM's death will arouse but no way can he be held up as an Irish martyr.

No matter where in the world, NI, SA and the Middle East, it is men-and women-of violence who perpetuate this hatred. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind think it reasonable or justified to terrorise folks whether by bombs or general thuggery in the community?
Long may the peace reign in NI now no matter how it was achieved. May it happen soon in the Middle East and other troubled areas of the world too.

Yes - thugs on both sides. But where it all started - I don't think that's so clear.

It's easier to groom young people into terrorism if they're being victimised by the other side. The IRA wasn't operating in a vacume. This lesson seems to have been forgotton now as we practically hand young muslims into the paws of islamic groomers.

Fitzy I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do! The IRA were thugs who used historical references to do what the hell they wanted to whoever they wanted.
But without unionist thugs terrorising catholics, it'ld have been harder to recruit! Of course, the real sickos would have still signed up, but they were largely the puppet masters.

I'm not confused at all. Nor do I need any help in identifying propaganda.

As for Bloody Sunday, that was terrible but doesn't compare with the continual and deliberate bombing and shooting of innocents for decades. The British army were there to try and keep the peace and put themselves in the middle of two warring factions to do this. Many died. We can all do without people now saying they were as bad as the terrorists.

if take the trouble to do so and trace things from there you'll see things are not quite as clear as you think That was my point. The IRA didn't start it. That doesn't make it okay, but it's not true that there were no troubles before the IRA.

People also need to be aware of how much propaganda is portrayed by the BBC, IRA attacks were reported as IRA attacks, but unionist claimed attacks, not so much! So from the viewpoint of the UK it did look like it was just one group.

only if you're confusing your IRAs, pre independance IRA/IRB is not the same IRA as the terrorists. Most of the pre independance IRA became the actual legitimate Irish Army! And many of it's members denounced the use of the name by terrorists

You will need to go back to the 12th century if you want to trawl back through history to see where this all started (or at least where English, or maybe more accurately Norman involvement began) and if take the trouble to do so and trace things from there you'll see things are not quite as clear as you think.

The Black and Tans came after the IRA.

There was a long bloody cycle of reactionary revenge on both sides, but the violence towards Irish Catholics came first.

That doesn't in any way justify the long bloody cycles of revenge, but it is totally inaccurate to say that without the IRA they'ld have been no troubles, there were troubles before the IRA, ever heard of the black'n'tans?

If the IRA had not existed and been murderously active, then there would have been no need for any defence force to act against them or indeed, a peace process

wow, you have NO idea what you're talking about
I have no sympathy for the IRA but they are not the only terrorists in NI and the IRA grew as a reaction to terrorism from unionists not the other way round, you've got your chickens and your eggs mixed up there love!

When there is suppression there will be resentment, anger, . it seeps through the generations. What made Bloody Sunday cause such anger is British citizens on a peaceful march were gunned down by British soldiers , the very people who should have protected them, murdered them. We are not talking terrorists but the British Army.

I do believe MM did as Mandela did and turned from violence to peaceful means to end the slaughter on both sides .

If MM rots in hell, then the soldiers who gunned down unarmed British citizens deserve the same,? but I don't wish that on anyone

Judthepud your posts are the most real and reasonable because you lived through it. We did have the dread on mainland UK of going into cities, we lived in London during much of it and a friend just missed a nail bomb by a minute or so but it would have been a daily dread where you were.

I was there just before the troubles escalated but was told to keep my mouth shut in Belfast just in case my English accent caused some trouble in certain areas. The friends I was with were both Protestant and Catholic and dreaded what they thought the future would hold.

jud as you said no one including the British are innocent in these atrocities. We should look forward with everything crossed for continued peace.

This was just one example of what was going on Trisher and ww You will see from my posts that I acknowledge how MMcG was instrumental in moving the Peace Process forward, but my example (just one of the many, many horrendous bombings perpetrated by the IRA) was to try to explain why many people feel so bitter and find it difficult to forgive. It is so hard for us to forget what was done during this period. You in England had a taster of what we had to deal with continuously for years. And once the loyalists got in there, the hell took a further downward spiral.

BTW the IRA were doing these things before Bloody Sunday. That just escalated things further.

It is dreadful Jud but I noted as well that the IRA apologised for this in 2002. It took the British Government until 2010 to apologise for Bloody Sunday.
2 terrible examples of violence but it was the 'terrorists' who admitted responsibility first and led the peace process.

jud I suspect this was as a reaction to Bloody Sunday. The point I am trying to make is that it does no good picking over old bones. Every living soul in Northern Ireland probably feels they have cause for resentment. But now there is peace and Paisley and McGiness should be recognised for their contribution.