Ken Livingstone

Sorry don't understand your post Trisher, to illiterate remember ? And I may waffle if I try to reply yes?

I would explain further Annie but I know you would only find it offensive.

Freedom of speech is important, but of course most - all here I'm sure - would agree there must be some limits, and anything amounting to racial slurs would be one limit. The question is whether comments such as KL's fall within that category. Some think yes, some think no, some think maybe. I doubt we'll get much further than that, so I'm off out to enjoy some sunshine instead!

I am sure I would Trisher if it was as mocking as your posts to me yesterday

Fitzy54 I think if there is an element of doubt, and I am quite willing to accept the debatable nature of this, it seems even less reasonable that the Labour Party should act as it has.
There isn't any sunshine here, please send us some!!

Thank you

This man has always been determined to do everything he can to annoy and by doing so keep himself in the news. Some of his action have been appalling and he was thrown out of the party at one stage only to be "rehabilliated". Perhaps the party should give him a one way ticket to Siberia as he was one of those who welcomed communism.

anniebach and nigglynellie, you are both spot on, Hitler was a vile dictator who wanted to get rid of the Jews by any means possible. We all know what happened as a result of that. He did not just want to get rid of the Jews, who he regarded as vermin, he also wanted to ensure that they were relieved of their assets, either before they left Germany or before they entered the Ghetto or the gas chamber. If KL wants to speak on this matter he is perfectly entitled to do so even if he offends others, but he will have to be prepared to take the flack if others find his comments offensive.

I think we have to recognise that between the wars anti semitism was very much alive and well even in dear old Britain. The Duke of Windsor wasn't the only person who admired Hitler, a lot of politicians on all sides seemed to find his way of government attractive! It would seem that you were either a facist or a communist! Remember Moseley? Whether we like it or not he had quite a following, until it suddenly dawned on us what Hitlers intentions were and then of course it was action stations. I do think we do have to accept not only the horrors of the holocaust but the inactivity of other countries including our which allowed the run up to this to happen with barely a whisper of concern. Kristallnaght (spelling!) only provoked the mildest of condemnation from western governments, and none from those in the East, giving Hitler the green light to do exactly as he pleased with no opposition from anyone. I think we all have to accept that other governments including our own bore some responsibility for the run up to the war and the appalling treatment of not only Jews but other unacceptable Nazi groups both in and outside Germany.

That should read, 'groups whom the Nazis found unacceptable'

Given that niggly is it perhaps our collective guilt that means we find it difficult to make a balanced judgement about this and perhaps tend towards seeing anti-Semitism everywhere? I wonder about younger people. I know there is substantial support for Palestine among youngsters could it be that they do not carry our collective guilt and are prepared to be more outspoken?

Strange all this angst over a bit of free speech from Livingstone when mass murder by Blair is just shrugged off.

History is often viewed through different lenses and he isn't advocating any disadvantage to anyone alive now. Even he is entitled to his opinion surely, isn't that why we fought the blasted war,to be free of dictators.

Corbyn couldn't find his own bum with both hands........he needs to man up and go after Blair and do some real work instead of contant navel gazing............

Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany. Moving them to another country was a possibility. So, in a way, he was advocating a Jewish state. I'm not sure why mentioning this was considered so offensive.

I'm afraid some people confuse legitimate criticism of Israel's politics and actions with anti-Semitism. A few look for offence in ANY mention of Jewish history.

I too cannot seem to find what Ken Livingstone did actually say. However, I do think the move to 'demand that he apologise' is farcical. The whole thing about 'making' people apologise seems a total nonsense to me. An apology is surely from the heart when you feel you have said something wrong or done something to hurt; you are acknowledging that you feel you are wrong, and that you are indeed sorry. If you don't feel this, then being made to say sorry is a silly, pointless exercise not even worthy of small children in a playground. I have absolutely no time for KL, and think his general policies and behaviour are also pretty farcical, but just wanted to make this one point which I do feel strongly about. The word 'sorry' is overdemanded, overused and therefore becomes meaningless.

I can understand many in the Jewish community being distressed, their parents, grandparents and extended families were gassed by Hitler, the Zionists fought for a homeland for Jews yet Livjngstone claims Hitler supported the Zionists ,

It wasn't so simple as that, but as you can't read links, it's difficult to explain everything.

It is as simple as that for the rabbi I have spoken to, I choose to accept his feelings in this matter than a non Jew or googling

Did Hitler support Zionists?

I absolutely aged with you Rosina, if you have to be made to apologise for anything then it's worthless. If somebody/government agrees to something under pressure like a medal or acknowledgment then the gesture is also imo worthless! It either comes from the heart or not at all.
Jewish history is very complicated and often extremely tragic , which I think adds to our feeling of guilt about these particularly dreadful times.

I give up! No annie it really wasn't that simple.

Zionists supported Hitler. Hitler used Zionists.

If what Livingstone said had been mentioned on a Radio 4 discussion programme, I don't suppose anybody would have taken any notice.

You really can't help having your digs at me, can you?

By the way, this isn't from Googling. My former sister-in-law was married to an Orthodox Jew, so my children's cousins are half Jewish. I worked for a charity, which was set up by Reform Jews and I'm still friendly with some of them. My former husband also worked for a company run by Orthodox Jews. The reason they employed him (a non Jew) was because very few Haredi Jews go on to higher education. I also studied 1930s Germany at university and became interested in how a civilised nation could have behaved as they did. Much post-war German literature is about collective guilt.

I've had pleasant discussions with all the above about different opinions on the Holocaust. I don't pretend to be an expert on Judaism or the numerous interpretations of Zionism and anti-Semiticism, but at least I recognise that different opinions exist.

Try Googling the "Stern Gang" and Lehi. Their main enemy was the British in Palestine. They murdered one of my father's cousins, who was a military policeman. They seriously miscalculated and thought that the British were more of a threat to a new homeland than the Germans were.

In the 1933 German census, there were only half a million Jews in Germany (most of those who died in the extermination camps were Polish) and Palestine could have accommodated them, but it was the British who stopped immigration.

As I mentioned previously, the Soviet Union was extremely anti-Semitic and evidence is emerging of the extent to which Soviets and Poles collaborated in the death of many Jews. They have tried to cover up by shifting the blame to Zionists themselves. Of course, it's a blame game. I agree with nigglynellie. Livingstone has accepted just one of the many interpretations.

By the way annie, if you want a more balanced view, try reading Haaretz as well as the Jewish Chronicle.

So Hitler used Zionists, not according to Livingstone .

Daphne, I don't read the Jewish Cronicle and what dig, have you not read the posts were the posters had googled for info.

Daphne, how unusual for an authodox Jew to marry out of the faith.

It is unusual for orthodox Jews to marry gentiles. The only person I can think of is Edwina Curry whose family were O J and apparently on her first marriage her father never ever spoke to her again!! Bit drastic I'd have thought, but I guess strong feelings run deep

I thought that you were only Jewish if your mother was a Jew, so are your children's relatives considered to be Jewish or follow their father's faith (or none) Daphnedill?.

Was it more to do with what Livingston said to the journalist which annoyed the press therefore more of a big deal was made out of his Zionist remark?