V.A.T, in school fees

Which average? And what range would you include? Average plus or minus how much?

I can't find the later charts. This one is from 2014, but incomes haven't changed much since then. This is household income - not individual.

It can be seen quite clearly that there's quite a difference between mean and median. There are far more people earning below mean income and the mode is somewhere around £300. The top quartile begins at about £700pw. This is household income, so might be a single person (with or without children) or a couple (with one or both working). It's before housing costs, which could cost 50% or more of income,and includes any benefits.

So where would you consider "middle income" to be? It really isn't that simple to define. I do know that a couple on median household income of about £440 with the average 1.8 children, paying average mortgage or rent couldn't afford private school fees and would struggle to pay tuition fees, the average rate for which is £25-30 an hour outside London.

I don't know what tuition fees are now.

Middle income is not average income then?

Jalima What range would you consider to be "middle income"?

My misunderstanding. I thought you were still paying for tuition. I assumed you were talking about current tuition rates and the people who pay them.

Lillie I know this is anecdotal (partially), but I find it quite ironic that there seems to be such a high rate of eating disorder amongst independently educated girls.

I agree with you about the different pressures. Being expected to "perform" well educationally in addition to being a brilliant musician, sportsperson as well as being thin and well-groomed takes its toll. I'm not going to give details, but working with a teenager for a year or more in his/her own home does give you an insight into family dynamics - although, of course, I have to keep my mouth shut.

Two people in a household on average incomes or below average will be above average income-wise.

I don't know what whether or not we have a mortgage now has anything to do with our outgoings when we had DC at home incuding a mortgage
As they are in their late 30s and 40s now it is totally irrelevant as I am not paying for extra tuition for them any more.

Yes, daphne, there are all sorts of pressures in the independent sector too, quite different from the state sector. That's why I find it totally incongruous - back to the original subject - that Corbyn tries to talk about them both in the same breath on an emotive subject such as nutrition.

Thank you, Lillie. That's the impression I have too. I've obviously never asked them, but I see their houses, expensive fixtures and fittings, cars, clothes, know what jobs the parents do and how many expensive holidays they take a year. Unless they rob the occasional bank, I really don't think they could manage the lifestyles they have on less than £100k.

My heart actually sinks when I take on students from independent schools, because I have a feeling that some parents think that throwing money at a problem will guarantee higher results.

Most of the children I teach from independent schools are "busy" after school and at the weekend with private tuition. Competition is very fierce and intense as the local schools receive far more applicants at 11+ than they have spaces available. They continue to have extra tuition throughout senior school. Joint parental income is well over £100,000.

gillybob No, I don't buy a lot of materials - maybe £200pa. When people pay me, all they're really getting is ME - lucky them! I do keep records such as fuel used, which are tax deductible.

"Middle" and "average" are two of the most misused words when discussing pay (and other subjects), because there are different definitions of "average" and the percentage "in the middle".

I haven't paid any income tax for the last three years, because I didn't earn enough, so I didn't have anything to worry about anyway. I will have to pay something (not much) for the tax year which has just ended, because I now receive occupational pensions. Another reason I declare everything is because I want to earn enough to pay NICs to increase my state pension.

I don't know what the definition of "middle income" is. However, I know the DWP and council don't regard me as having a low income, because I'm not eligible for any benefits or council tax relief (apart from the 25% single occupier rebate). That would imply that "middle income" starts at below the threshold for paying income tax (currently £11,500). Errrmmm...however hard I prioritised or saved, I couldn't afford school fees.

Annie, I wasn't saying it wasn't worth collecting the tax on the group like daphne.
I was saying, as she said, that it wasn't worth the worry for her, so she makes sure she pays it properly.

I still do self-assessment tax returns from when I had a business. That's why I often end up owing them 50p or £1.20.
Theor system does not allow you to input pence, but it charges you pence when it adds up. Very annoying.

How come you do not know about VAT when you do your brother's accounts?

Jalima May was being very clever when she mentioned JAMs, because so many people think that they are 'middle income' or JAMs. The facts tell a different story and many people think they're worse off compared to others than they actually are. I'm maybe assuming something here, but I guess you no longer have a mortgage or, at least, it's not so high as many younger people have.

The median salary in the UK is about £26,000. Net pay is obviously much lower and total income will depend on a number of factors, such receipt of tax credits or any other benefits or income from savings and payments such as pensions, NICs, income tax, student loan repayments, etc. As a result it's not possible to be accurate about net income. However, after housing costs it's reckoned to be about £23,000 per household and it depends on the calculation method.

Assuming that the above figure is accurate, there are even further variables, such as travel to work, etc. Most people round here pay about £5,000pa on commuting costs.

"Middle disposable income* is somewhere in the £20k region, so half of all households have income below that figure. The spread above £20k is very big. Having a disposable income of over £30k places a household in the top quartile, so my understanding of "middle income" is from about £16k to about £25k. I really doubt that the parents of most of my students have an income that low.

Anyway, I thought that the elderly denied being "well off". How come they can afford to pay for tuition, while their children can't?

I still don't see the point of this anyway, although it's a good argument against hypothecated tax, because people resort to "It's not fair - he's getting more than I do and doesn't deserve it" squabbles.

Thanks gillybob. I didn't know that and will check it out.

You can volunteer to be vat registered at any income whatsoever, although there is a level of turnover where you have no choice. If you buy a lot of materials/equipment etc. you can voluntarily vat register and claim the vat back but then of course you have to pay he vat out on income too.

£83,000 pa daphnedill is the VAT threshold apparently.
Can you not get VAT refund on the materials or buy them VAT free?

I would have said we were definitely 'middle' income and I paid for private tuition for some subjects for the DC because the school was like the curate's egg - it depended entirely on which teachers your DC ended up with, some brilliant, some should have been retired or seemed to be teaching at the comprehensive (very poorly) just to afford the fees for their own offspring to be educated privately. It was not just the parents who thought some of the teachers were worse than useless - some of the other teachers thought so too.
We could not have afforded private school fees so did the best we could.

Surely all tax dodging should be treated the same not dismiss one group as not worth the worry. Benefit claimants who earn a bit on the re width the worry to many

If they do not pay tax on their earnings, they will be fined if caught.
Like daphne says, it's not worth the worry.

Architects have the same thing if they do private work, as do any other professions.

Many teachers also take on private tutoring , these I am speaking of .

dj I'm hardly likely to admit that I avoid/evade tax , but yes, I do.

Firstly, I'm an honest person and despise tax evasion. Secondly, I've had enough stress in my life and would be constantly worried that I'd be caught out, if I didn't declare everything.

X post dj. I'm not sure. I know I don't earn anything like that, so I don't bother checking.

It's almost impossible for a tutor to have a turnover of more than about £10k a year.

Most students want lessons between 4pm and 7pm, so the number of hours a tutor can work are restricted. I nearly always travel to my students and don't charge for travelling time, so the absolute maximum number of students I can teach in a week is 15. Not only that, but students don't usually want lessons during school holidays or just before Christmas holidays, so I rarely have work for more than 38 weeks a year. I charge the maximum the market will stand, but many tutors charge less.

They do pay any tax due!! I pay VAT on most of the materials I buy, such as DVDs, paper, ink cartridges, fuel etc and factor my costs into the fees I charge. I can't remember the threshold for paying VAT, but it's something like £85,000 turnover and I can't imagine any tutor earns anything like that.

The parents of some of my students are extremely wealthy. Some of them already send their children to independent schools - some don't and have made a conscious decision to save on school fees and employ tutors on an 'ad hoc' basis. In any case, the state schools in this area are better than any of the indies. I obviously don't discuss parental income, but I would imagine most of my students live in households with an income well over £50,000 a year, which puts them in the 10% highest earners in the country.

I don't know why you assume that only those in the middle employ private tutors - most of them can't afford it. I've been doing tuition for four years and it certainly isn't my experience that it's mainly middle income families. I've had a couple of students whose parents have probably had to make sacrifices to pay for tuition, but they're the exception. I'd love to be able to give discounts to poorer families, but unfortunately I'm poorer than most of them and I have to pay my own bills.

I really think you're splitting hairs here and I don't really understand the point.

What's the VAT registration level now, daphne?
£75,000? £80,000?
That's a big turnover for a self employed tutor.

They do, Annie. I don't understand what you are getting at here.
Daphne, do you pay all the tax you should?

If people on benefits are punished for earning a bit extra to survive the affluent are to be taxed for sending their children to private schools then those in the middle should pay any tax due on private tuition . Too much of this attacking the poor and affluent but ignoring those in the middle.