V.A.T, in school fees

The Forces budget covers the cost of private education for children of service personnel to the tune of about £80 million per annum. Presumably the boarding school education of children of parents in the diplomatic service, MEPs and others is also paid for by the taxpayer.
If VAT is charged then the taxpayer will be funding that to give back to the state education sector.

It just has not been thought through properly.

Thanks dd, my DC'S went to state schools so I don't have that much information about them, however my friend's GC attend private schools and do get some part of their fees on a bursary (no idea how much or what the criteria for receiving that is) but it's still a huge outlay annually, I think.

I think most pupils on a bursary have parents who earn more than £11,500.

I tutor a number of pupils from independent schools and I know some of the wheezes parents use to get bursaries for their children. Full bursaries are quite rare, so parents still have to pay a few thousand a year.

Frankly, I think some independents aren't worth the money. I hear horror stories about some of them and I'm not impressed with the standard of work (that's why the parents employ me).

Thats a good point dd . And those pupils who are attending a private school on a bursary, due to low income, would also possibly not be earning enough to be taxed.

It's not always paid for out of already-taxed income dbDB77. Some companies still pay school fees for their employees. I expect if they continued to do so, they would then offset the VAT against their profits.

Foreign pupils account for about 20% of all pupils in indies (in some schools it's much higher), so they won't have paid British tax - nor will some British ex-pats, who often send their children back to the UK to be educated.

There are many politicians who send their children to state schools - are they to be subsidised with free meals by the 'just about affording school fees' parents?
The MPs and Lords already get excellent meals subsidised by us, the taxpayer.

I think it's all a gimmick too. I don't know how many free school meals the VAT would "buy". When the coalition abolished the "Sport in Schools" initiative, it promised to give the money back to schools. This money was a few pounds per school and schools could have just about bought a single new football for the whole school.

The average annual fees for day pupils is about £16,000 and 80% of parents of children in independent schools have an income of over £50,000pa - so the issue of choice is quite clearly nonsense, because the vast majority of households do not have a spare £16,000pa per child. Increasingly, schools are relying on overseas pupils, which is why I wondered if overseas parents would be exempt.

I would be in favour of abolishing charitable status, but not to fund free school meals for all pupils. The FSM eligibility criteria urgently need reviewing, especially as Universal Credit rolls out, because there's a cliff edge. It's almost impossible now for the children of parents in work to be eligible for FSM, which is a major disincentive for people to come off JSA and take low paid work. However, I think there are better ways that schools could use any extra cash.

VAT exemption is not just dependent on charitable status - this is from the link I provided earlier:

"For supplies of education to be exempt it is not necessary to be a charity. Education is exempt if it is supplied by an eligible body. Eligible bodies include schools within the meaning of the Education Act, UK universities, colleges or halls of such universities, further/Higher Education bodies, Government Departments/Local Authorities, bodies which are precluded from distributing profits; and where profits must be devoted to the exempt education, and bodies which teach English as a foreign language."

It's also worth remembering that charging VAT at 20% on school fees will not result in an extra 20% of all fees paid going to the Exchequer - that's not how VAT works - the schools would be able to offset their output VAT with their input VAT - as do all VAT liable businesses.
As I said - it's a complex tax.
This proposal is just "rich bashing" - the sad "politics of envy" - class war - it encourages one section of society to hate another section - not good for society.
My children all attended state schools - but I have no problem with people sending their children to private school - in fact it saves the state sector a lot of money - and the fees are paid for out of income that has already been subject to tax.

I thought that education was devolved.

Has Jeremy thought about this?

I understand that applications for two independent schools near where my DGC live are well down - a replacement comprehensive is being built there which will take fewer pupils too.
Presumably parents are feeling the pinch and will be applying for places at the new comprehensive which means those on the edge of the catchment area may not get in, which would include my DGC.

Diane Abbott said she would have been more than happy to pay VAT on the private school fees she paid for her son to help subsidise state school pupils' meals - but she could well afford it.
And - she would say that wouldn't she

He didn't say English schools, so I assume it's all schools.

Does anyone know how those who attended private schools, but had a free place because of a bursary, for example, would be affected tax wise? There are several private schools near me and they do advertise that they have some places available for the children of low income families, so I'm assuming that this is means tested.

“The next Labour government will provide all primary school children with a free school meal, invest in our schools, and make sure no child is held back because of their background.”

So - is that just England or the whole of the UK?
As I said above, Welsh, Scottish, N Irish parents subsidising English children whose parents may well be able to afford to pay for school meals?

So when large numbers of parents decide that the VAT will just be a step too far and they cannot afford private school fees after all, will the state be prepared well in advance to take all these additional pupils?

My personal experiences colour my judgment about grammar and private schools. Nothing wrong with that, I don't think. Can't avoid it.
We're all experts in education as we've all been educated one way or another.

Fitzy, it was the fact that Fernandez voted for Gove to be PM, and now she says that taxing private education is wrong, despite the fact that it was his idea. Nothing to do with free school meals.

Many fairly wealthy parents send their children to state schools for idealogical or other reasons. Many parents/grandparents struggle to pay private school fees for their DC/DGC. It seems absurd that possibly wealthy parents could be subsidised by those who are just about well enough off to pay private school fees.

I don't have any objection to subsidised school meals, free for those who need them, but funded out of general taxation.

Personally I feel that Jeremy Corbyn has a problem with private and grammar schools which is not just a result of idealogy; I think his personal experiences colour his judgement.

Nearly all independent schools are registered charities.

The way they get round making a profit is to set up secondary companies, which then provide a service to the schools. The secondary companies are allowed to be profit-making. State academies and free schools use this loophole too.

Yes I recall now reading an article by Gove criticising the tax status of private schools. But I dot think he said anything about free school meals. I rather think that's a Corbyn add-on. DJ, was that made clear in QT?

Brilliant. On Question Time, Dimbleby has just said it was Gove's idea. After the Tory said the idea was rubbish.

I meant I agree with luckygirl.

I agree there, but you just have to look at who will be voting on the charity status. No chance.

I'm not sure why parents of children in private schools should be specifically targeted for this initiative. Feels a bit like a political gimmick. It's not as though those parents pay less income tax or other taxes than everyone else, and in paying for private education they are perhaps taking a bit of the strain off state schools. I don't say they should be given any particular credit for that, but to specifically tax them to pay for a new state scheme benefit doesn't feel right.. But as a more general point, whether private school fees should be vat exempt is another issue. I don't know whether they all are, or if it's only those with charitable status - i.e. I assume that private schools which are privately owned and run for a profit paid to the owners don't get charitable status, and if they don't, are they still vat exempt? I don't really know But I agree it would be odd if they are exempt. But I can see why those run on a not for profit basis should perhaps be exempt.

Private schools should cease to be classed as charities.

I can see no reason why VAT might not be chargeable on school fees as on so many goods and services.

The evidence of the positive effect of free school meals on children in deprived areas is clear; but there is no evidence that is has any impact in more affluent areas.

NUT supports Corbyn's idea.

Does anybody know how charging VAT would affect overseas parents? Would they be exempt?

Yes it would be nice if we all cared about all children and paid more tax,