V.A.T, in school fees

I chose to send my children to state school

Did you really choose Norah ? Or like most of us was it a case of you couldn't afford to do otherwise?

I wouldn't find fairness - adding VAT (for others meals) to tuition for my children, GC, or GGC.

Sorry don't agree with private sector paying for free school diners for state educated children .My partner paid for private schooling for his son.
He was not in a highly paid profession, although he was in a position of responsibility. I chose to send my children to state school. My partner at the time lived in a very modest house in a area that I would not want to live in, he made many many sacrifices for his son's future and had to endure many unkind remarks from neibours who thought he was loaded or snobbish. He was neither, just a Father from the West Indies who wanted to give his son a good start in life knowing racism still exists in the job market and he wanted his son to be well educated and have the best. His son now has a wonderful career and a good future. The school's where he lived were not good.
As I mentioned above I chose to send my two children to a state school, but I would not expect the private sector to pay VAT so that my children could get a free meal, I would take responsibility for that. I would also add if they had added VAT my partner would not be able to send his son to that school.

As far as I am aware, VAT is charged on items classed as luxury isn't it? I would definitely consider private school a luxury.

I'm simply pointing out that there is evidence that a hot meal at lunchtime helps all children. When it was free we had a 98% uptake. This dropped dramatically when the free meals were stopped (down to 45%).

We want to improve children's education in state schools. There is evidence that free meals help with that improvement.

I' sure no one's arguing any different, but surely they're already having a meal at lunchtime, whether free for parents on benefits or paid for by parents? Some opt for a packed lunch because they don't like the school meals, not necessarily because of the cost.

Only something like (haven't checked) 7% can trisher.

Private schools are businesses and shouldn't have charitable status. Anyone who buys from a business expects to pay VAT. The parents pay the business to educate their child and therefore should pay VAT.

I worked in a school that provided free meals of all children. It formed part of a study by Hull University. Anecdotally I can say that making sure children had a proper meal at lunchtime definitely made a difference to afternoon performance and behaviour. I'm aware that anecdotal evidence isn't totally accurate but the Hull University research found the same. Children benefit from eating a healthy meal at lunchtime.

We don't here either nina it is just how they define the age groups of those who could get the free meals and those who couldn't. There are rules in place regarding "infant" class sizes that don't apply to older primary children.

I would love to send my DGC (especially the eldest who seems like she will not have a school to go to in September). But as you say trisher if you can't afford it, you can't have it

That argument doesn't work for me Anniebach Choosing not to have a holiday or eat out wouldn't even touch the cost of school fees for most people. She says they both work, but doesn't say how much they earn.

Ah ok, we don't talk about infants or juniors in this area. All children are said to be at primary school from R until aged 11. After which they attend "The Acadamy" (Heaven help them)
Thanks for the clarification.
I would support VAT on fees funding free meals for all state primary children.

I couldn't afford private education for my children either, no doubt many can't. If you can't afford it you can't have it. That's capitalism for you.

I think trisher is offering the most rational argument so far but I feel slightly irritated about the way the LP has put this forward. If you want to tax independent schools then put forward your argument and do so; if you want to provide free school meals then put forward your argument and do so. There is a bit of a nasty taste with how this has been presented although that doesn't make it wrong (or right).

I do see that these days the LP has to 'show all their workings in the margin' because the right wing propaganda has persuaded some that they are not competent but in truth recent (and historical) Tory policy seems to have been far more economically illiterate.

Mmm. As I am in favour of getting rid of much of the child allowance system and replacing it with the possibility of 24/7 care this is probably a step in the right direction.

I don't agree with the simplistic argument that if you have children the government shouldn't support you. Countries need their population to go on having children or you get to the end of humans - which is silly. If countries need children they should offer some support.

A mother was interviewed this morning, she and her husband both work, they choose not to have holidays or eat out, they struggle to pay the fees for their children's private schooling , if vat is added to their fees she doubts her children will be able to stay at their school.

It does to me too trisher

It's Infants schools non so up to age 7. Primary schools would take it up to age 11, at considerable cost of course, funded by VAT on private school fees, seems perfectly acceptable to me.

It is all "infant" children nina so therefore Reception, Years 1 and 2.

Someone correct me please but aren't all primary children given free school meals in R class and yrs 1 yrs 2.
I'm not 100% about yr 2

Yes trisher you are right. If all meals were free then probably all (well most) children would take them up and therefore the school would know exactly how many decent meals should be provided.

Bring back the proper school kitchens with proper cooks!

I don't understand the argument that builders pay vat and charge vat Well some do, but that's a whole different argument.

Sorry Anniebach (I'm having a particularly thick day today) are you saying that the VAT from school fees would offset the cost of free school meals for all primary children? If yes, then I'm all for that !

VAT is a tax charged on goods and services that are sold why should education be exempt?
Builders and business men can send their children to private schools as well as GPs and would pay the VAT the same, so they would be subsidising any children at state schools be they GP's, builder's or business man's

gillybob Free school meals would rectify the numbers problem and ensure there is a proper meal for everyone. Some of the cost would be providing proper school kitchens

I don't understand the argument that builders pay vat and charge vat.

so parents who pay school fees should pay vat , the schools who provide the service will not be charged vat but the parents and the money will pay for meals so parents of state school children will not have to pay for their children's dinner

A builder should pay for free meals for a GPs children? A business man should pay for free dinners for a builder's children? Where's the difference it's an irrelevance.
Free meals for all primary children because a) it isn't economic to only provide meals for children of families on benefits, b) it does substantially increase performance.
Nick Clegg first highlighted this
www.gov.uk/government/news/new-data-shows-13-million-more-infants-eating-free-school-meals

Yes, that how I took it too Anniebach but I am a simple soul and prefer things to be spelled out. Otherwise you never know do you?

We do not live in a fair society jusnoneed I think its perfectly reasonable to expect the "haves" to help the "have not's" and for the record breakfast clubs are NOT free !

I'm not sure trisher at my DGC's primary they have a set routine for lunchtimes. The reception and yr 1 go first followed by Yrs 2,3 then 4 and 5 and finally yr 6.

My 3 DGC are spread out. Yrs 2, 4 and 6.

Youngest says school dinners are good. Middle one says they are okay (but there's sometimes nothing left she likes) Eldest says they are disgusting and there is often nothing left except dried up sandwiches and rotten fruit. I have seen this with my own eyes.

The HT says that its very hard to estimate how many hot dinners she needs as the uptake changes daily. I don't agree and think it is truly disgusting that someone paying (and lets face it they aren't cheap) or even not paying,for a meal should be given a stale sandwich and a scabby apple which will in no way "increase a child's achievement" Subsequently my eldest DGD takes a very nice packed lunch everyday. I do feel sorry for those on free meals who will not be in the position to provide one from home.

I agree that anyone sending their child to a private school (be they GP or hairdresser) should be exactly the same. I also agree that unless the private school can prove that it offers some of its facilities as a "charity" to the wider community, then thy should not enjoy charitable status.