V.A.T, in school fees

dd Southend sounds ghastly. Is it really as bad as it sounds?

My daughter lives in a Sussex Weald Village which has unusually a state boarding school. It's name suggests it is a grammer school but it is non-selective, and has an intake from a wide area. There has never been a move either by the Tory Council or parents - to change the school to a selective grammer. It has as you might imagine a high level ofmiddle class parents who also rejected academy status. They understand all the arguments very well indeed and are vocal in retaining the good comprehensive state LA funded school. Why break something that provides such an excellent level of education to ALL the children in the village? They all wear the same uniform, they all go to the same school with no "second class" children. Cruel to divide them all at 12. They all go off at 18 to their choice of one of about 6 sixth forms. Each offering the type of course that the child wishes to pursue. This varies from a tertiary college to various more academic college. My grandson is hoping to study initially at A level and then an apprenticeship leading to a degree in engineering (something to do with robots). So will leave many of his friends who are going to other colleges to pursue their chosen career.

That to my mind is how it should be. Treat all children with respect and care.

Gillybob. I feel for your disappointment re; grandchild's school. Is it not possible for parents to move house if all else fails?

I meant 'sink' is worse than 'bog-standard'

There are bullies at all schools and I think girls can be worse than boys.
We seemed a pretty mixed bunch at my High School, one of the girls from an extremely poor background became Head Girl

Which sounds worse than 'bog-standard' gillybob

I did pass my 11+ Jalima1108 heaven knows how I did, but I did.

I would have been much better off in a secondary school where it was less academic and more "hands on" subjects were offered. Instead I was out of my depth with the "cream" of the boroughs 11 and 12 year olds doing subjects such as Latin and Physics that I neither enjoyed or could get my head around. I hated it. I was a bullies dream. Not pretty. Lower working class, not fashionable (even strict uniforms have a fashion), my parents were old fashioned in their views and I could not talk to them.

To clarify my previous points:-

The all girls Grammar school I went to was full of bullies.

The school my DGD has been offered is awful.

So glad we didn't move to Southend when our oldest was 12 then, it sounds a horrible place to live.

And speaking as someone whose child was quite poorly throughout her youth with something undiagnosed for years and took a three year 'vocational' course I would have disliked the snobbery that there would appear to be in Southend about children who take vocational courses as mentioned in your post daphnedill.
Incidentally she is now one of the most sought-after people in her area for her 'vocational abilities'.

I didn't say that the children were awful Anniebach (although like most schools there will be a mix of nice and not so nice children). Even the poshest most expensive private establishment will have its share of horrors.

^Gilly, where did these awful children go if not to the sec mods?
Just because they're awful and bullies does not mean that some of them may have passed an 11+ in years gone by.

anniebach Essex local authority has mainly comprehensive schools, apart from four grammar schools, which are super-selective. They take about 2-3% of the most able pupils.

Southend, although geographically in Essex, also has four grammar schools, which are much less selective, because it's a much smaller authority.

Essex parents try to get their children into the Essex grammar schools as a first option, then they try for one of the Southend grammar schools. Approximately 40% of pupils in Southend grammar schools come from outside Southend, mainly Essex. This affects the ability of the Essex comprehensives, because some of the most able have been "creamed off", although Essex is a mainly comprehensive authority.

The opposite happens in Southend. Parents try to get their children into the grammar schools, but if they fail, the parents then try for one of the Essex comprehensives, which achieve higher results on average than the Southend non-grammar schools.

The result is that Southend non-grammar schools don't have the (approximately) 25% most able. They also lose those children who have been able to get into Essex schools. Not surprisingly, the Southend non-grammar schools achieve low results, because their intake mainly consists of the least able. Of course, parents of able children in Southend don't want them to go to schools where most of the intake is of below average ability and course offered are generally "vocational", so they have little choice but to try for grammar schools or apply to an Essex comprehensive as first choice. It's just tough luck if a child has a cold or family issues on the day of the 11+ and their whole life and future is affected.

Wow, eugenics as well, Gracesgran. Can you imagine those at the top allowing the rest to use it to make us all equal.
Redistribution of genetic wealth.

Must admit I listened with gritted teeth because I can't stand Toby Young.

Gilly, where did these awful children go if not to the sec mods?

My DGD has been offered a place at one of "these" schools Anniebach. The school that no-one "chooses" to go to. The school that will always have places. The school who's Ofsted report is diabolical. A school who cannot recruit or retain good teachers. A school that one bus company refused to pick up children from. I could go on.

I am nether pro nor anti grammar schools. I went to a grammar myself and wasted my time there. Someone more deserving should have had my place. It was a horrible all girls school, full of bullies.

I would just like to see a situation where all schools are good schools. It is "choice" that has created this massive divide with parents choosing to travel miles to get their child into the "best" school creating a kind of "non desirable" tier of schools, which has a knock on effect.

Daphne,will you explain what you mean by - sink schools with an even worse intake than the secondary moderns?

I think both the pro and anti-grammar school posters should listen to "The Rise and Fall of Meritocracy" I came away from it thinking we should be spending more of our energy making the gap smaller between the top and the bottom of pay rather than worrying about Grammar Schools. I was a programme that definitely gave pause for thought.

I think the main reason for my DGD not getting a place in the school that is literally on her door step stems from parents knowing that the only way to secure a place for their child in what is arguably one of the best (if not THE best) secondary schools in the borough, is to get them into a feeder primary even if they have to travel from miles away. It is a means to the end of eventually securing the (much coveted)secondary school place. The result of this is that children moving into the area after the age of 4 have no chance whatsoever of getting into the school as all of the places have been already allocated 7 years previously.

The parents of pupils who don't get into the Southend grammar schools do their best to get them into the Essex comps. Essex and Southend are different authorities. Value added scores show that these pupils do just as well in the comps. However, it means that the remaining Southend (so-called) comprehensives are sink schools with an even worse intake than the secondary moderns.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ooh yes, well spotted Ana. Must tell the Spanish chef!

I see Tacos has been given an apostrophe! Sigh...

Ha Ha, Jen don't even get me started on vegans, halal, kosher etc.!

No vegans, then?

Plenty of food for thought in this discussion!

Two weeks of sandwiches for lunch and I'm looking forward to returning to yummy school lunches - see example of choices.

Dinners were ok, hated some of the puddings! Semolina with jam?