Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

PenstemmonTimes have changed, one of our teaching staff choose a date in the middle of Spring term as her Wedding day, she was given the Thursday and Friday before her Wedding on the Saturday off as well as the following 2 weeks.For twelve days the children in her class had to make do with a mix of T.A's, the Head when she could be spared and parents.Thank goodness it wasn't a S.A.T's year.

When education was expensive and only for the well-to-do, it was valued. Those who couldn't afford it did menial or manual work. Reformers made great efforts to make literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of history and geography available to all. now education in this country is free, universal and, above all, compulsory - so it has become commonplace and undervalued, and even to be resisted and avoided. Funding it is compulsory, too, on taxpayers, many of whom would resent paying more for it, so successive governments try to spend less on it and demand more from those at the sharp end.

I often think this is the case - with the NHS too. What do we do? Charging would be against the whole ethos of 'free at the point of access'. I have sometimes thought we should have to pay and then claim - not thought it for real (because the most needy may go without) but how else do people know what it costs.

Because my daughter teaches young people about to go to University or into a job she set one of their lessons round a personal budget but she also talks to them - when they complain about fees - about the cost of the course they are taking. They only see it as both free and an entitlement.

This is not how those who brought us both modern education and the NHS saw it. They saw it as two sided with responsibility on the side of those who received the education and health care. I do not like the Conservatives attack on groups - those on benefit, etc., but somehow we have to get the idea back that responsibility is something we owe society.

At one time schools were just about basic education and reinforcing society norms (manners etc) but now schools are on a hiding to nothing; expected by government to be substitute parents and policing parenting, parents resenting over interventions by school staff and a curriculum that is not really fit for 21c and not always fit to engage the wide range of kids because it is generally one size fits all!

Penstemmon I think the issue is not that schools should do everything but that their building needs to be used to do everything. This is why I suggested basically a normal working year with teaching as the "core" of the day but everything else at either end and not involving teachers whose work would be in the core.

The idea that because school is in the building it can only be used by the school is certainly out of date as is the idea that schools/colleges are responsible for all extra-curricular education which the government adds and adds and adds.

In my area many schools are used for evening classes and weekend courses, which extends their usefulness.

There are problems though - instead of the janitor/caretaker and his staff giving the place a good clean and still getting time off, someone has to be on duty all the time, and clean and check rooms both before the evening classes and before the children arrive in the morning.

With members of the public in and out of the building, security has to be considered in this terrorist era.

All this costs more out of LA funds, where the supply of money for adult aducation teachers is already drying up and means fewer classes.

It all comes back to the value put on education - and not just education of children and teenagers, but continuing for a lifetime. A lot of the loneliness and ill-health of older people is mitigated by going regularly to a group to learn or keep up an interest, skill or hobby. The value to everyone - old or young, rich or poor, individuals or society.

Elegran I am not sure I would agree that the worry about caretakers is a logical step to thinking people don't put value on education. I would agree with you both about the foundation of education in the school years and continuing education which, with changes of working life, AI and robotisation will mean changes of career and not just changes of job and possible periods of part-time or no work where not just the elderly need to be able to access interests, learning and socialising.

However, why do you feel the problem of the caretaker is insurmountable. Why are people who trained as teachers running school buildings. I have seen this from both sides - attempting to rent space and working in a school at a high enough level to see the management skills and they are really bad at it - they are also really bad employers. I don't mean they are bad people but just that only a few do this well - a very few. Why should the buildings not be community buildings with a company running it for all. They would have to let to the education authority for the core hours and some areas may need to be permanently let to them but a company running the building could make it work far more efficiently.

Thinking small will not move us forward. Someone needs to think big.

grannypiper the teacher allowed time off mid term to get married! Astounding.
The head presumably referred this to the governors as it is beyond the normal conditions of employment. There's a long list of things that teachers can have days off for e.g. moving house, interviews, close family member giving birth etc but getting married definately not one of them.
Either the head and the governors are a pushover.
Or they have a serious recruitment and retention problem and were terrified the teacher would resign - and the teacher knew this. She might even have threatened to go. Who knows. But I have never heard the like...

I wasn't moving direct from caretaker trouble to lack of value for education. Lack of funding for staff in all branches was the link - teaching, admin, cleaning, supervising. Not valuing education shows in the funding and organisation of it as well as the using of it.

If the buildings are to earn their keep they have to be managed actively, and not be empty or unkempt while they are being so used. Cleaning and maintenance are an important part of having the premises fit to use. Also new buildings have to be fit for purpose and corners not cut in the carrying out or the supervising of contracts (which has recently led in Edinburgh to the lengthy closure of several fairly new-built schools while slipshod work was redone, this causing large-scale shifting of pupils to be squeezed other schools during the work, and great disruption to senior pupils without a base as they prepared for exams)

Not sure it's so unusual JessM My DGD2's teacher took a month off to get married and travel the Far East. She brought lots of interesting things back with her so that made it okay.

Or they have a serious recruitment and retention problem and were terrified the teacher would resign - and the teacher knew this. She might even have threatened to go

You probably hit the nail right on the head !

But the state schools appear to be useless at managing the buildings Elegran - actively or otherwise.

Exactly. It needs a bit of joined-up thinking making the connection between optimum use of a building, maximum income from lets and the cost of building it in the first place and using it part-time purely as a place for primary or secondary education. Spending more on some aspects could produce money to help finance other uses, but it would take planning and day-to-day supervision - and employing more people.

Of course it would but those people might well pay for themselves and provide more community facilities. All you seem to want is what happens currently and a whinge. Why do you think you know how to manage buildings?

GGMk2 I seem to have different experience from you re state school lettings/management. Most of the people employed by schools as Bursars or business managers usually have no teaching expertise but come from business / financial backgrounds so do manage the school 'as a business'. I cannot see the benefit of a company, unless it is a not for profit organisation, running a school's lettings etc. Why would the school want to give money to a company/shareholders when, if it is managed in house, all profits go back into the school pot.

PFI is a good example of nightmare outsourcing!

Even our little Victorian infant school (building, a former workhouse, is not really fit for purpose for a 21c school, & where I am currently chair of governors manages to raise several thousand pounds a year from lettings. This includes lettings to a company who run a breakfast club and some after school activities. Evenings/weekends the school is well used e.g. by a local choir, the WI, Swedish school,as a rehearsal space by local Am Dram. Local comprehensive makes a good income too, by letting all their sports facilities. It is busy holidays, weekends and evenings with various sports clubs and kids parties etc.

When did I say that? And why are you beating me about the head? You said ideas were needed, you put up some yourself then complained when I mildly pointed out practical doubts about them and said I had done nothing but criticise, now you are laying into me for making more suggestions and giving my opinion on where someone needs to do a spot of co-ordination. Someone, not me - I am not claiming to be the expert. I'll leave you to sort it all out without me,

Elegran maybe GracesGranMK2 is part of Capita,G4S or Serco and is drumming up support! We all know how well they are doing running "public services"

Elegran I am no more 'beating you about the head' than you are me. You seem to want everything to stay as it is which is fine but then everything will be as it is and, although you may feel that is fine I don't.

Penstemmon I understand that it is better for a teacher to become academic head of the school but why everything else. Even if you have a bursar the head, who may well have had no management training or experience other than in a school, will be in ultimate charge.

All the secondary schools I know have a Business Manager. They're often former bank managers, because so many have been made redundant. There is official university level training for school business management available. Headteachers should be in charge, because the core function of any school is learning and the Business Manager should service that function, not the other way round.

Gg You might be interested in finding out about Henry Morris, who integrated secondary and community education in Cambridgeshire in the inter-war years. He described his ideas as "raising the school-leaving age to 90".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morris_(education)

X post Penstemmon.

Headteachers are indeed in ultimate charge but I, and my colleagues were/ are not complete idiots and also know our limits and are not embarrassed to seek advice!
One issue I came across, when working closely with an business partner form Goldman Sachs, was his difficulty in working out how schools /heads did everything they did: HR, Premises management, Finance/Budget management, Social & community work etc. as well as leading the teaching for youngsters who all had a wide range of abilities and needs. I had trouble understanding what he,and his team of eight, did all day when all they had to think about was buying music futures!
Actually we had a very beneficial 6 months and we both learned a lot. However it did not change things radically, I still drove my Ford Fiesta and he his snazzy BMW Z4.
Different worlds!

Headteachers do not need to be in ultimate charge of a building. They (those I have come across) are incredibly set in their ways and have little knowledge of how the real world and commerce work. There are exception of course but we need someone concentrating of the education of our children not how a building is run. As for ex Bankers running the business side of Schools I feel you are making my case!

I do like the idea of education until 90 but right now we need the same opportunities to those up into their 60s to have loans, etc., to get degrees and further. I know the age has gone up but it needs to go up faster.

Maybe it would be helpful if you actually explained what you mean and what your problem is.

It's different in primary schools, because they don't have the money to employ business managers and a site team, but I have never known a head in any secondary school to have much to do with buildings.

You seem to be using this thread to have a general rant about teachers. Frankly, I'm finding your allegations ludicrous.

S/he thinks schools are underused as business potential & s/he thinks s/he has the answer. Also thinks headteachers cannot have a business mind!!

JessM Yes the head was useless, she was only ever worried about her outfit for the next day.

I don't have the same experience as you with Head Teachers GGM2.

I was a Governor for many years ( like many of us) at both Primary and Secondary level. In both cases the Head was very aware of their knowledge levels and in both cases seconded onto the board people with the right knowledge base.

I would also say , in my experience , I have never met people LESS set in their ways. Progressive - yes. Forward thinking- yes... and I cannot believe they were in the minority. The Head of the Secondary School had the ear of the then Prime Minister because of his ideas for change. That school regularly still receives and outstanding in its Ofsted inspections based on what he started.

I don't have a problem Daphne. I was just making some suggestions. We have moved from teachers/lecturers being mangers of the academic side of education to them being the managers of a business unit with cost centres in the way that a non-academic business would be. What a waste.

Why would I want to rant about teachers - I have already said I have many educators, at all levels, among my family and friends. I just do not think carrying on in the way we have always done will work. It is more noticeable in Universities where they have changed from being academically driven for an elite to being business driven for a approximately half the population. As with all change some of this will be good and some not so good and the teachers are busy job-crafting in order to make it work. Huge amounts of additional work, mainly nothing to do with education and set up by the government to undermine the autonomy of teachers, has just been divided out and added to teachers already heavy workloads.

Penstemmon, I do hope you are not a teacher or ex-teacher as your manners are severely lacking. Who is 'she'?

My manners are spot on GGMK2

I was answering daphnedill who asked a question.
I am/was always open to ideas and advice on how to do my job better. I undertook a masters degree in Education Management, have worked with & shadowed business partners. I have worked in businesses as well as schools. I am not unusual amongst HT colleagues. Leadership and management skills are generic. A good leader takes time and effort to understand the context of an organisation and to know the product & its market. Whether I am leading a successful educational establishment or a product focussed business the principles are the same.