Voting quandry

Cindersdad said: I agree that Jeremy Corbyn is a total disaster for Labour

Some Labour party members are, quite obviously, having difficulties with the man who has been democratically elected their leader but this seems to be internecine rather than a country-wide issue. Of course the fighting has brought down Labour's standing but that is not my point.

I do wonder if this means Corbyn will necessarily be a bad leader for the country? I would not naturally be a Labour voter although I would in certain circumstances, and keeping the Tories out is, currently, under FPTP, one of them and this has made me think. All over the world people are selecting leaders who do not look like the cut-out dolls we are used to. Some are quite worrying, some may do better than we thought they could, some are finding the systems need challenging.

I don't believe this has been all good or all bad and I have no way of knowing (nor has anyone else) how Corbyn would be as a leader but I really am fed up with the "trust me; I'm one of the capable politicians" that we are told must be on offer to attract people to their cause. I find they lie and obfuscate and, although the truth may be difficult to hear and someone thinking things through may be different to the 'trust me - I know the answer' politician, I am not sure that this isn't a change for the good.

Anya you are of course right to remind me and others that Brexit is not the only thing to consider. However unfortunately Brexit impacts onto just about everything.

Considering the whole. The NHS and Social Care overlap.

Education or rather the over emphasis on university as the expense of apprenticeship type training. Society needs a system to prepare people for the real world.

We know that lifestyle choices and the environment impact on our health and that in turn affects the NHS and the need for social care. Education in turn affects lifestyle choices. So everything is interrelated.

Our membership of the EU has by and large benefited the Environment, helped education and our health system. Most of the immigration that has caused issues is not from the EU. Nearly all of society's problems are due to bad government decisions over the last 50 years and not the fault of the EU. There are faults in the EU as shown by the French Election but we should be part of fixing them as well as our own issues.

Daphne, I have to accept the poor and the vunerable will not be supported, the numbers will increase and they will have been failed because the far left has destroyed the Labour Party . I realy believe if Labour and taken the centre left ground we would have had a chance of winning .

I agree with you, Anya. obviously Brexit is an issue and still raw for many people, but it should be about other issues. May's alleged reason for calling the election and attempt to focus on Brexit is a smokescreen. The EU has already stated it won't make any difference at all to negotiations. She knows very well that her record on the NHS, education, social care, etc. is abysmal, so has framed the election round an issue which she will win, but will no doubt claim that she has a mandate for a granite Brexit, which will give her an opportunity to abandon the EU laws which have been beneficial to people (not to mention the 2015 expenses).

Sorry, I started this post before a read yours and realise I've more or less repeated what you wrote.

I find it really difficult to understand how any Labour supporter (whether left,right or centre) could applaud dbDB77's post. It's pure Tory propaganda. You're always going on about the poor and vulnerable annie, so how do you imagine they're going to be supported?

The debt is still increasing and austerity isn't working, because it never has. Public services are being slashed. There are two sides to every equation and the fact is that the country isn't collecting enough tax from those who can afford it,which is precisely why May has refused to rule out tax, NIC and VAT rises.

Austerity doesn't work because it reduces the amount of money being earned and, hence, going to the Treasury or available to be spent on what people produce. Too much wealth is being siphoned off to foreign investors and/or to tax havens. With interest rates so low and many people with wealth not being able to find investment opportunities, there's never been a better time to borrow, if necessary.

Marbles you are voting for your local MP; is there one you feel would personally be good for your area?

How has your constituency voted in the past? Who has the best chance of winning who is not Tory. this will help you find the party that would keep the Tory's out as you have said you do not want to vote for them. If it comes up Labour I think you will just have to decide between those who are left and know that you have voted in a way that leaves you, personally, with a clear conscience.

No one else can tell you what is best; each persons reasons for voting the way they do will be different.

This shouldn't be about Brexit, or that should only be one of many issues.

Education cuts, NHS, Social Care, the environment and so on are also very important.

Yes, TM will win with an increased majority but perhaps not a big a one as she anticipates...(hopeful emoticon) that might make her think.

I agree that Jeremy Corbyn is a total disaster for Labour but no more so than the Hard Brexiteers are for the Tory party. The only thing to do is if your preferred party candidate is a Brexiteer and you feel that is wrong is to vote for another candidate who is pro EU. If the new parliament has a majority of Pro-EU members then the "Will of the People" expressed on the 23/6/16 has changed and that change should be considered. Tactical Voting may be but circumstances are extreme and we need to consider what is best for the country and for the younger generation.

If the majority in the country appears to be for Brexit then so be it. However as the terms of Brexit become clear views can still change so parliament must have the ultimate veto to call it off as they see fit.

The true mood of the country can only be judged by counting all the votes and projecting what a PR based parliament would be like rather than the FPTP assembly we will be landed with. Open Britain (a cross party anti Brexit alliance) is targetting seats to support pro EU candidates who may be Lib Dem, Labour or Tory.

Good post dbB

.yggdrasil, you believe in a dictatorship ? Why should the PLP lie and pretend he is a great leader? He is not.

He was a leaver the party supported remain,

Why should they agree to scrapping .trident because he does

Why when militants were expelled from the party did he start a csmpaign from his home to get them bsck in?

What of the party membership he betrayed then?

Why did he greet the Momentum member who heckled a labour M.P and caused her to leave the room?

He doesn't deserve loyalty, he has never given it

I have no time from your Comrade Corbyn, he is destroying the party

I'm with you on this one marbles - I am in a real quandary - but my solution may be different from yours - I cannot believe that I'm actually thinking of voting Tory. As a country we face a real challenge in our Brexit negotiations and I think that the best person to be our PM at this crucial time is Teresa May. And it's not just an issue of May or Corbyn - look beyond Corbyn to his team - are any of them fit to govern? McDonnell as Chancellor? I think not - all the credible Labour MPs (apart from one or two) have left or are leaving politics or are languishing on the backbenches.
There are also other reasons - I'm tired of hearing about the "savage Tory cuts" when we know that public expenditure is rising year on year and we are still in deficit - and a major chunk of current expenditure is interest on our debts - every time anyone wants to talk seriously about managing & controlling public spending there are howls of outrage from the opposition parties. But we cannot continue to spend what we haven't earned and I hate to think of the mountain of debt a Labour government would leave for my children's generation and their children, and their children ...

A lot of people who feel like you, Grannyof11 have looked at all the parties and decidede to join the Liberal Democrats - over 12,000 new members bringing the total to over 100,000!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39694417

Marbles

No apologies were asked for.

I wasn't intending anything of a snotty nature, sorry if that's how it came over.

I can see how my post may have appeared as such.

I genuinely wondered if you had noted the other two threads which gave lots of points that might have given you some thoughts to come up with an answer to your dilemma.

[peace emoticon]

yggdrasil Could you give an example of something Corbyn has achieved in his 33 years as an MP other than protesting against everything.

Please don't do that Granof11

None of the parties have published their manifestos yet, or declared who all their candidates will be, but you could look on the parties own websites to get an idea. I recommend the Liberal Democrats-

www.libdems.org.uk/

Marbles I feel just as you do so am purposely spoiling my postal vote and returning it as usual.

Oh I did a really long reply and it has vanished. I will try again answering questions in order

1) POGS - oops no apologies for this
2) varian - no, just rumours but if they are to be believed then this is the case.
3) Jeremy Corbyn - I think I need more that one thread to answer this but enough to say that any party that has divided its own members to such an extent will never be a credible opposition. I think he's lost it in every sense. One for deeper discussion elsewhere I think but overall I find it shocking how Labour has crumbled to such an extent so quickly. There are a number of Labour MPs who I have great respect for and if I was in their constituency I would vote for them regardless. But generally I can't support the party as it is at the moment for many reasons though it pains me very greatly to say this
4) Anniebach - precisely
5) rosesarered - yes I totally understand this. I need to do more research into the LibDem manifesto first. A slight worry is that I know so many disenfranchised voters of both the main parties at the moment that if we all vote LibDem it could make a real difference so I want to make sure I know what I am really voting for in detail. Of course voting for an independent is also a fair answer but how much notice will the main parties take of such votes as a form of protest. If none or very little then I feel I need to use my vote to greater effect which brings me back to square one. I voted remian by the way
6) fair point rosesarered
7) lazigirl yes I will thank you
8) whitewave of course the manifesto rather than the person - although if I felt strongly pro my candidate for various reasons that may change the way I feel - likewise strongly anti. More research to be done ver the next month or so
9) yes to the comments about Corbyn!
10) angelab this is a fair point but I think the party needs to sort itself out before we can think of them as credible enough - also as people have said Corbyn needs to be consistent and support his own manifesto. The fact he's all over the place is indicative of the mess the party is in
11) welshwife - agree

anyway sorry for the long and complicated answer - this is what happens if you post and then go to Sainsburys [grin} I thought it was better than answering each in a separate post

He voted with his convictions when it came to the Brexit vote - he should have allowed his MPs the same freedom instead of the three line whip! That is what really annoyed me.

Anniebach said <Shouldn't a party leader stand for his party's beliefs not his own?>

He does stand for the party's beliefs, all those in the country who have joined Labour since he became leader, making them the biggest party in the country.
If you mean the Parliamentary Labour party, well, they should stand for the party's, and the leader's, beliefs. They are the problem, not Corbyn.

IMO the only hope labour have to get rid of the tories is if they all rally behind Corbyn - whether you like it or not he has been twice voted in a leader and this is not the time for squablles within the party.

As some wag said recently, Corbyn has voted against the Labour Party more than
May

Exactly the problem.... Corbyn is at odds with various policies within Labours manifesto!

So if not getting rid of trident is not in labours manifesto what then?

It's the manifesto that you vote for not the person. Well if you do it's a bit daft.

If you don't want the Tories to have a landslide victory vote tactically. Look at other post discussing this.