Brexit - the end of the beginning - the negotiations begin

I took Margaret to mean all people living in Germany - but some obviously didn't.

Do we believe this version of the dinner?

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/how-junckers-downing-street-dinner-turned-sour

Didn't we all?
Well, not everyone obviously

"Didn't we all": sadly, not quite enough of us.

I know that EU officials speak fluent Engkish so they understand all the whisperings and nuances and conversations in corners which take place. Mrs May wont be able to.

I have coached British business men in German just because of this point. They felt the Germans came to decisions after getting their heads together and speaking German.

Boris is the man she needs at her side but I doubt if he is reliable althogh his language skills would be useful.
Personally I think she looks awful in these bright red and orange outfits. I feel she needs to look powerful but has not succeeded.
She is not to be envied! Fr Merkel has been in office 8 years and is very confident but it wasn't always so. She is very unhappy about the situation she liked David Cameron and always wanted Britain to remain.
Didn't we all? its a nightmare situation.

DJ re your assumption as to future immigration terms - here is something we do agree on! My point was that it's a major issue in terms of the referendum. Immigration controls were clearly at the centre of of pro- brexit campaign and vote.
In any event, another thing we would free on I'm sure is that the deal as described by the author, including what we assume he suggests re immigration, would truly be excellent. But would the UK public accept it?

That is one of the groups I keep and eye on - I joined a group of UK citizens in Europe and there is a link up with those in UK and those in Europe. Nicholas Hatton has been on TV etc and several of them have met groups in UK. - before the HoC committee on Exiting the EU (the one chaired by Hilary Benn) and also as they say in that piece Barnier etc.
So many people really worried about their day to day lives.

From the 3 million.

www.the3million.org.uk/article50

Single-market membership or its equivalent is sought, and not ruled out before the talks begin. Single-market access, matching today’s benefits, is a red line.

I took matching today's benefits to include future immigration terms.

Ah well, Fitzy, you rarely agree with me anyway, so I wouldn't expect you to think it's excellent. I do.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it excellent DJ! Plenty of spin, and he seems to have neglected to cover future immigration terms with the EU - pretty critical to the market access "red line".
An interesting take though.

"British perceptions of the meal have not been leaked in the same level of detail but there's no doubt the European briefings will be seen in the UK as provocative - and designed to stir up fears among British voters about what Brexit is going to mean."

From the BBC article.
Theresa May wants to keep the talks secret. The EU doesn't.
If the EU gives its side of it, she cannot be surprised.

This is an excellent article by Paul Mason.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/01/peoples-brexit-plan-replace-mays-flawed-strateg-juncker-leak-june-alternate

" Theresa May has dismissed as "Brussels gossip" an account of a dinner with EC President Jean-Claude Juncker, published in a German newspaper.

The pair reportedly clashed over Mrs May's desire to make Brexit "a success" and whether the issue of protecting the rights of expat UK and EU nationals could be agreed as early as June."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39770328

It could asked durhamjen if you are accusing Theresa May of being a liar!

Again the article in the German Paper was not based on factual evidence, some people don't require factual evidence it appears. Only one German Newspaper reported this unproven material and other media outlets do what they do best 'cover' other media outlets gossip .

It could a true analysis, it could be a load of old rubbish. One thing for sure those who have a dislike of Theresa May , The Tories will thrive on anything reported against her. That is fine but only if you can prove the facts.

durhamjen

" even though the person who gave it was speaking for Juncker."

If it was released with Junckers approval/on his behalf as you state then I'm sorry but it would further show the shabby way he conducts himself. Is that a fact by the way?

May knew that there could be no agreements about anything until Article 50 had been presented to the rest of the EU.
Now we know that the EU want all EU nationals, including those UK ones in the EU, to have the same rights they have now, including the right to have right to remain after living in the other country for five years, but May wants to treat EU nationals like any other immigrants.
So much for reciprocity.

POGS this more recent link suggests the EU are ready to go on this issue
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/29/brexit-rights-of-eu-nationals-eu27
DJ. - May also said the Commission have announced that the talks over dinner were contsructive! I've not looked into that but assume she isn't lying. I find it all rather confusing. Someone is playing games.
p.s. Note the Guardian link!

I find May's attitude very embarrassing. She has said the FAZ article is just Brussel's gossip and she did not recognise it, even though the person who gave it was speaking for Juncker.
Is she actually calling Juncker a liar?

Sounds about right Roses.

Fitzy

The problem is the EU are playing the same card over 'EU Nationals/Reciprocal Rights', there are more than one party at fault.

I understand the argument the UK could 'unilaterally' allow EU Nationals a right to reside , but equally so could the EU Commission. There has been Nothing/Nada/zilch/ coming from Brussels to give any indication they want to stop using Citizens as pawns in their negotiations, yet some only make that accusation against Theresa May.

EU Nationals being those living outside of their own country from the ' 28 Nations ' in the EU and Theresa May has a duty to protect the rights of UK Citizens living in the other ' 27 Nations ' when we Leave.

Theresa May has stated this:-

"Rights for EU nationals in Britain, and British nationals in the EU: we want to guarantee these rights as early as we can. We have told other EU leaders that we can offer EU nationals here this certainty, as long as this is reciprocated for British citizens in EU countries.".

There were numerous amounts of coverage reporting how Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk had 'refused' to agree to any 'Reciprocal Rights of EU Nationals' UNTIL ARTICLE 50 had been triggered. Now it has been triggered there is still a dragging of feet over Reciprocal Rights it would appear.

At least Theresa May had tried months ago to obtain EU Nationals Reciprocal Rights but the EU Commission refused. For the sake of those UK Nationals in the other 27 Nations she has a duty towards them and doing ' what it takes ' to ensure their protection , her job is to protect UK Citizens as Prime Minister.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38148527

" The status of UK and EU expats after Brexit can be resolved only once formal negotiations have started, the European Council president has said.". (Tusk)

That's half the problem Fitzy there are facts, guesswork, wild speculation, leaks of facts,leaks of made up things, it wouldn't be wise to believe most of it.
Then there are bluffs and double bluffs. Both sides need a good deal.

WW:
DD: all a bit confusing. I'm reading articles that say the EU are ready to sign off on an agreement over nationals right now.

MargaretX I think the wind has been put up them since Brexit and of course they will be keeping a close eye on what the trends are in other countries of the EU.

We hear such a lot about what Merkel thinks, what Germany says, but what about all the other member states?

May is trying to do deals in private.

No, it's not a good point. Juncker has said what he's been saying all along.

MargaretX good point, Juncker et al will be very worried about the French election; I expect Macron will win with a substantial majority but even he has said that he wants substantial reform of the EU.

Juncker and Barnier both speak fluent English, so I would imagine the language of the dinner was English.