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What is 'far left'?

(222 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 16:39:09

dd asked this question on another thread. I can't possibly answer it because I think it's a catch all term which means different things to different people. However, various labels have been mentioned, such as communism, socialism and Marxism, I presume as illustrating 'far left' thinking and it set me thinking.

Marxism is a term which interests me because Marx's ideas were at the basis of communism. Marx as a sociologist was briefly covered in my degree course and I thought his analysis of society was interesting. I still do. On the other hand, I think he spent too much time sitting in the Reading Room of the British Museum and failed to take the reality of human nature into account. His theory of 'communism' quite failed to recognise that no two people think alike and that 'man' is not inherently noble and disinterested. We know from history just what happens in Communist countries and it in no way resembled the workers' nirvana that he visualised. It produced a society that was as hierarchical, repressive and unfair as the contemporary societies he analysed.

However, I think his work offers food for thought as to how societies might be better organised.

These are extracts from a review of his work which I think are still relevant today.

So what was it that made Karl Marx so important? At the cornerstone of his thinking is the concept of the class struggle. He was not unique in discovering the existence of classes. Others had done this before him. What Marx did that was new was to recognize that the existence of classes was bound up with particular modes of production or economic structure and that the proletariat, the new working class that Capitalism had created, had a historical potential leading to the abolition of all classes and to the creation of a classless society. He maintained that “the history of all existing society is a history of class struggle”. Each society, whether it was tribal, feudal or capitalist was characterized by the way its individuals produced their means of subsistence, their material means of life, how they went about producing the goods and services they needed to live. Each society created a ruling class and a subordinate class as a result of their mode of production or economy. By their very nature the relationship between these two was antagonistic. Marx referred to this as the relations of production. Their interests were not the same. The feudal economy was characterized by the existence of a small group of lords and barons that later developed into a landed aristocracy and a large group of landless peasants. The capitalist economy that superseded it was characterized by a small group of property owners who owned the means of production i.e. the factories, the mines and the mills and all the machinery within them. This group was also referred to as the bourgeoisie or capitalist class. Alongside them was a large and growing working class. He saw the emergence of this new propertyless working class as the agent of its own self emancipation. It was precisely the working class, created and organized into industrial armies, that would destroy its creator and usher in a new society free from exploitation and oppression. “What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers”.

His analysis of 'class' was pretty sound, the bit in bold is what we know he was mistaken about.

^ With the evolution of modern industry, Marx pointed out that workmen became factory fodder, appendages to machines. Men were crowded into factories with army-like discipline, constantly watched by overseers and at the whim of individual manufacturers. Increasing competition and commercial crises led to fluctuating wages whilst technological improvement led to a livelihood that was increasingly precarious. The result was a growth in the number of battles between individual workmen and individual employers whilst collisions took on more and more “the character of collisions between two classes”.^

why is it that Marx felt that the existence of classes meant that the relationship between them was one of exploitation?
In the course of the working day, Marx reasoned, workers produce more than is actually needed by employers to repay the cost of hiring them. This surplus value, as he called it, is the source of profit, which capitalists were able to put to their own use. For instance, a group of workers in a widget factory might produce a hundred widgets a day. Selling half of them provides enough income for the manufacturer to pay the workers’ wages. income from the sale of the other half is then taken for profit. Marx was struck by the enormous inequalities this system of production created. With the development of modern industry, wealth was created on a scale never before imagined but the workers who produced that wealth had little access to it. They remained relatively poor while the wealth accumulated by the propertied class grew out of all proportion. In addition, the nature of the work became increasingly dull, monotonous and physically wearing to the workforce who became increasingly alienated from both the products they were creating, from their own individuality and from each other as human beings.

Sound familiar?

The political system, the legal system, the family, the press, the education system were all rooted, in the final analysis, to the class nature of society, which in turn was a reflection of the economic base.

*This did not mean that education and teaching was a sinister plot by the ruling class to ensure that it kept its privileges and its domination over the rest of the population. There were no conspirators hatching devious schemes. It simply meant that the institutions of society, like education, were reflections of the world created by human activity and that ideas arose from and reflected the material conditions and circumstances in which they were generated*

...the individuals who make up the ruling class of any age determine the agenda. They rule as thinkers, as producers of ideas that get noticed. They control what goes by the name “common sense”. Ideas that are taken as natural, as part of human nature, as universal concepts are given a veneer of neutrality when, in fact, they are part of the superstructure of a class-ridden society. Marx explained that “each new class which puts itself in the place of the one ruling before it, is compelled, simply in order to achieve its aims, to represent its interest as the common interest of all members of society i.e. ..to give its ideas the form of universality and to represent them as the only rational and universally valid ones”. Ideas become presented as if they are universal, neutral, common sense. However, more subtly, we find concepts such as freedom, democracy, liberty or phrases such as “a fair days work for a fair days pay” being banded around by opinion makers as if they were not contentious. They are, in Marxist terms, ideological constructs, in so far as they are ideas serving as weapons for social interests. They are put forward for people to accept in order to prop up the system.

I think this is fair analysis, too. It is also a very simplified version of a large body of work.

The questions in my mind are:

"How far are people willing to accept that the situation Marx analyses is inevitable and has to be lived with?"

And

"Is it reasonable to be influenced by Marx's analysis as a basis for altering the balance in society to ensure a more equable distribution of resources without actually wanting to overthrow the status quo?"

MaizieD Mon 15-May-17 08:22:56

MOnica could you point out exactly in which post dj made this comment which you are objecting to? Because I can't find it. Though I can find one that might be taken 2 ways.

M0nica Mon 15-May-17 08:14:10

If you knew all about Hazlemere and why did you make the patently incorrect comment on the lack of poverty there?

I will happily assume that an individual living in the north does not know about life in the south when they have just demonstrated that ignorance or did you knowingly make an incorrect political jibe, hoping no-one would pick you up on it.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 21:23:27

Don't you think it's sad that Haslemere needs a foodbank?
Don't you think it's sad that anywhere needs a foodbank?

Don't you think there is something badly wrong with society when a millionnaire Tory MP has to be seen to go and visit a foodbank in his own constituency?
I bet it wasn't there when he became MP for South West Surrey.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 21:18:35

The people who need to read those links will not, unfortunately, Maizie. They prefer to believe their own prejudices.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 21:17:12

Not ignorant of Haslemere. I used to teach down the road in Liphook. Many of the kids I taught had fathers working in the city. Others came from traveller families.
Best you don't assume that someone who lives up North knows nothing about those who live down South.
However, Newcastle still has the biggest foodbank in the country.

By the way, do you know where Hunt is?

M0nica Sun 14-May-17 21:11:51

dj, Do not show your ignorance. In many ways there is probably more poverty in Haslemere than many such towns further north. It is just hidden behind the obvious affluence. Rents in places like Haslemere and other places in the south east are astronomic, and house prices also, so that on any given income almost every family in the south east will be poorer than those on the same income in the northern part of the country. Many people who are JAMS in the north are in desperate poverty in the south.

MaizieD Sun 14-May-17 21:11:00

there's more than just 'this billionaire chappie' at it. I suggest people read Carole Cadwalladr's pieces of investigative journalism

www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/14/robert-mercer-cambridge-analytica-leave-eu-referendum-brexit-campaigns?CMP=share_btn_tw

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit

Though I don't suppose people will.

Jalima1108 Sun 14-May-17 20:38:37

You just don't care, do you, roses, so long as your style of superiority wins

I do love a bit of irony

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:58:52

I didn't say anything about covert manipulation.
It's even worse that it's overt, buying the general election.
Is that acceptable to you?

thatbags Sun 14-May-17 19:53:28

Haha! It's very funny seeing roses accused of superiority by you, of all people, dj!

This billionaire chappie who's supposed to be paying for covert manipulation? How can it be covert since his spending on supporting Brexit both before and after the referendum is publicly known and talked about?

thatbags Sun 14-May-17 19:50:42

Was more spent on the Brexit campaign than on the Remain one?

rosesarered Sun 14-May-17 19:41:46

I care about things being true durhamjen

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:35:18

You just don't care, do you, roses, so long as your style of superiority wins.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:33:44

I was looking at Jeremy Hunt's constituency to see if he was doing anything there.
I noticed that he has given food to a foodbank in Haslemere.
Not recently.
I wonder how many people are in need of a foodbank there.

rosesarered Sun 14-May-17 19:30:44

Sounds very paranoid Maizie and does this 'covert manipulation' go on by all political parties or is it just the evil Tories by any chance?
And when T May and government are returned with a good majority, will this same 'covert manipulation' then be blamed for their popularity?

MaizieD Sun 14-May-17 19:26:16

Jeez! it's nothing to do with 'rights'. It's to do with covert manipulation of people.

I suppose people might wake up and smell the coffee one day...

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:25:04

Readers of the DM are now able to read their paper asking where Hunt is after he's made a fiasco of the NHS security system.
Hopefully they will get a crass response/excuse.

rosesarered Sun 14-May-17 19:21:04

That's right varian readers of The Sun and Mail have exactly the same rights as you do!

M0nica Sun 14-May-17 19:17:32

I do not think the British, as a whole, are obsessed about class, just the media and Labour politicians. I cannot say it ever arises in any conversation I have, even when the subject of the conversation is other people

You cannot measure the needs of people by dividing them up into
social classes because the groups are so vast and so varied. If the government is interested in health it will be interested in classifying by age, income and household size. The same for social services. Looking at housing; tenure income and household size. I cannot think of anything where dividing society up by subjective decisions about what are working class or middle class attributes would be of any use at all.

varian Sun 14-May-17 19:15:20

We, the small minority who are genuinely interested in politics and try to see beyond the propaganda, may realise it is not fair, but on election day we only have one vote each, just the same as the readers of the gutter press.

MaizieD Sun 14-May-17 19:14:34

roses, voters in Turkey, Russia, North Korea have their vote, too. (Though whether they all get counted is a moot point.)

Yes, there has always been voter manipulation practised in elections but at least until recently it has been on public media and open for all to see. You might think that covert manipulation of voters by billionaires to achieve their own personal ends (they're not even part of the 'ruling elite' don't forget) is perfectly OK but there are a great many people who see it as violating the 'free and fair' nature of elections.

whitewave Sun 14-May-17 19:12:21

And don't forget Mercer. Untold millions into the Brexit campaign.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:09:58

Elections not free and fair?
The millionnaire Brexiteer who spent over a million on the campaign and is now targeting MPs who voted to remain yet live where the majority voted to leave, spending another million on it, does not seem very free and fair to me.

durhamjen Sun 14-May-17 19:06:17

Another big difference now is that because of social media we can see how much we are manipulated and protest.

whitewave Sun 14-May-17 19:04:07

monica you are right of course. As you go through life what matters to most people are life chances and opportunities.

But in order to plan policies in say education or health or social services as a couple of examples Government and others need to be able to measure the needs of groups of people, and to be able to do that in our society we are put into groups in this case called class. It is a necessary and sensible way of organising our society.