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What is 'far left'?

(221 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 16:39:09

dd asked this question on another thread. I can't possibly answer it because I think it's a catch all term which means different things to different people. However, various labels have been mentioned, such as communism, socialism and Marxism, I presume as illustrating 'far left' thinking and it set me thinking.

Marxism is a term which interests me because Marx's ideas were at the basis of communism. Marx as a sociologist was briefly covered in my degree course and I thought his analysis of society was interesting. I still do. On the other hand, I think he spent too much time sitting in the Reading Room of the British Museum and failed to take the reality of human nature into account. His theory of 'communism' quite failed to recognise that no two people think alike and that 'man' is not inherently noble and disinterested. We know from history just what happens in Communist countries and it in no way resembled the workers' nirvana that he visualised. It produced a society that was as hierarchical, repressive and unfair as the contemporary societies he analysed.

However, I think his work offers food for thought as to how societies might be better organised.

These are extracts from a review of his work which I think are still relevant today.

So what was it that made Karl Marx so important? At the cornerstone of his thinking is the concept of the class struggle. He was not unique in discovering the existence of classes. Others had done this before him. What Marx did that was new was to recognize that the existence of classes was bound up with particular modes of production or economic structure and that the proletariat, the new working class that Capitalism had created, had a historical potential leading to the abolition of all classes and to the creation of a classless society. He maintained that “the history of all existing society is a history of class struggle”. Each society, whether it was tribal, feudal or capitalist was characterized by the way its individuals produced their means of subsistence, their material means of life, how they went about producing the goods and services they needed to live. Each society created a ruling class and a subordinate class as a result of their mode of production or economy. By their very nature the relationship between these two was antagonistic. Marx referred to this as the relations of production. Their interests were not the same. The feudal economy was characterized by the existence of a small group of lords and barons that later developed into a landed aristocracy and a large group of landless peasants. The capitalist economy that superseded it was characterized by a small group of property owners who owned the means of production i.e. the factories, the mines and the mills and all the machinery within them. This group was also referred to as the bourgeoisie or capitalist class. Alongside them was a large and growing working class. He saw the emergence of this new propertyless working class as the agent of its own self emancipation. It was precisely the working class, created and organized into industrial armies, that would destroy its creator and usher in a new society free from exploitation and oppression. “What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers”.

His analysis of 'class' was pretty sound, the bit in bold is what we know he was mistaken about.

^ With the evolution of modern industry, Marx pointed out that workmen became factory fodder, appendages to machines. Men were crowded into factories with army-like discipline, constantly watched by overseers and at the whim of individual manufacturers. Increasing competition and commercial crises led to fluctuating wages whilst technological improvement led to a livelihood that was increasingly precarious. The result was a growth in the number of battles between individual workmen and individual employers whilst collisions took on more and more “the character of collisions between two classes”.^

why is it that Marx felt that the existence of classes meant that the relationship between them was one of exploitation?
In the course of the working day, Marx reasoned, workers produce more than is actually needed by employers to repay the cost of hiring them. This surplus value, as he called it, is the source of profit, which capitalists were able to put to their own use. For instance, a group of workers in a widget factory might produce a hundred widgets a day. Selling half of them provides enough income for the manufacturer to pay the workers’ wages. income from the sale of the other half is then taken for profit. Marx was struck by the enormous inequalities this system of production created. With the development of modern industry, wealth was created on a scale never before imagined but the workers who produced that wealth had little access to it. They remained relatively poor while the wealth accumulated by the propertied class grew out of all proportion. In addition, the nature of the work became increasingly dull, monotonous and physically wearing to the workforce who became increasingly alienated from both the products they were creating, from their own individuality and from each other as human beings.

Sound familiar?

The political system, the legal system, the family, the press, the education system were all rooted, in the final analysis, to the class nature of society, which in turn was a reflection of the economic base.

*This did not mean that education and teaching was a sinister plot by the ruling class to ensure that it kept its privileges and its domination over the rest of the population. There were no conspirators hatching devious schemes. It simply meant that the institutions of society, like education, were reflections of the world created by human activity and that ideas arose from and reflected the material conditions and circumstances in which they were generated*

...the individuals who make up the ruling class of any age determine the agenda. They rule as thinkers, as producers of ideas that get noticed. They control what goes by the name “common sense”. Ideas that are taken as natural, as part of human nature, as universal concepts are given a veneer of neutrality when, in fact, they are part of the superstructure of a class-ridden society. Marx explained that “each new class which puts itself in the place of the one ruling before it, is compelled, simply in order to achieve its aims, to represent its interest as the common interest of all members of society i.e. ..to give its ideas the form of universality and to represent them as the only rational and universally valid ones”. Ideas become presented as if they are universal, neutral, common sense. However, more subtly, we find concepts such as freedom, democracy, liberty or phrases such as “a fair days work for a fair days pay” being banded around by opinion makers as if they were not contentious. They are, in Marxist terms, ideological constructs, in so far as they are ideas serving as weapons for social interests. They are put forward for people to accept in order to prop up the system.

I think this is fair analysis, too. It is also a very simplified version of a large body of work.

The questions in my mind are:

"How far are people willing to accept that the situation Marx analyses is inevitable and has to be lived with?"

And

"Is it reasonable to be influenced by Marx's analysis as a basis for altering the balance in society to ensure a more equable distribution of resources without actually wanting to overthrow the status quo?"

Ana Fri 12-May-17 16:40:17

Pass.

MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 16:46:09

No problem Ana

I thought it might appeal to people who like to think about things.

paddyann Fri 12-May-17 16:56:18

I have an American friend who believes socialism and communism is the same thing ,no amount of explanations will convince her that treating people well by making sure they are educated and have health care when they need it ISN'T communism.Loonie leftie she calls me when I try to correct her misconceptions .

merlotgran Fri 12-May-17 17:05:29

I like to think about things but the length of that post made me think I've got an awful lot to do.

MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 17:16:31

Sorry,Merlotgran I'd have made it shorter if I could. But that's the problem; complex ideas can't be 'done' in a brief paragraph.

whitewave Fri 12-May-17 17:21:16

Marks was an economist and philosopher.

I think his description of a capitalist society - in the nineteenth century was unsurpassed, during that period.

His explanation of class was based on an individuals relation to the means of production.

I think that time has proven Mark wrong over the inevitability of Capitalism giving way to socialism. Capitalism has in fact proven extremely robust.

I am not sure that people do accept the inevitability, which is why Marks talked about revolution.

In answer to your second question, I think that that is exactly what has happened, particularly throughout the last century. We have welfare states, democratic socialism and various versions.

I'm not explaining myself very well at the moment, wrong end of the day!!!! If this thread is still going in the morning I'll give it another go.

Ana Fri 12-May-17 17:21:25

Yes, I got the sarcasm MasizieD, but as merlot has said, the length of the OP is off-putting.

TriciaF Fri 12-May-17 18:39:11

MaizieD I've been thinking about this since posting on the other thread.
There's so much to it. I believe it started with Marx's theories, which have been used in many countries (especially Russia, and maybe Cuba) and adapted to suit the situations in each.
The UK, being a "conservative" country, were more cautious and selective.
Got to go now.

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 20:21:46

I haven't got much time either.

I think "hard left" is absolutely meaningless in serious political vocabulary. It's used as a derogatory term by the established media to demonise ideas which challenge the status quo.

Communism has never had much influence in the UK. British socialism has been more influenced by religion (particularly non-conformism), the trade union movement and nineteenth century liberalism/philanthropism. It's been more evolutionary than inmost European countries,most of whom have experienced some kind of revolution in thelast 150 years or so.

British socialism has been pragmatic and has generally sought to use parliament to enforce change. Real communists would say that social change cannot be achieved through the current parliamentary systems, but needs revolution (if necessary violent).

Marx's thinking was a natural consequence of philosopher such as Rousseau. Remember "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. One man thinks himself the master of others, but remains more of a slave than they are"? Marx applied 18th century thinkers' philosophy to the society created by capitalism.

At the time, it was revolutionary to think that every human being had equal rights. No, I don't think the situation is inevitable and history has shown that many societies are trending towards greater equality.

British political history is sometime used as an example to prove that social change can be achieved without revolution. However, I think we're living through an era, in which a number of forces are clashing - like two tectonic plates. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if we're witnessing the start of some new era, although I don't know what it will be like. Ironically, the change is being forced by the left, but by the right - by a new breed of people, who would like to take over power.

Ah well! Didn't mean to write so much.

PS. No way are Corbyn and McDonnell communists. Real communists would laugh at them, but - hey - the Daily Mail says they are, so I guess people will end up thinking they are. The Labour Manifesto is standard social democratic stuff and is far less left-wing than Attlee's 1945 manifesto was. I guess it shows how "conservative" the British have become.

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 20:25:18

Eeek! That should be "the change is not being forced by the left, but by the right".

I need a new keyboard. The space bar on this one is knackered and it doesn't proofread anyway. :-(

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 20:27:33

Hopefully, this will be an interesting discussion. (Fingers crossed)

M0nica Fri 12-May-17 21:03:43

Far left is to the left of me!

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 21:09:01

But what does that actually mean, MOnica? Do you mean a government which seeks to redistribute wealth to people poorer than you?

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 21:11:44

What does "left" mean?

I am unequivocally socially "left", but it doesn't mean that I agree with supposedly left-wing strategies for achieving equality of opportunity.

M0nica Fri 12-May-17 21:37:18

No, I mean anyone whose political opinions and the policies they support are to the left of me. In the same way DH describes anyone to the right of us as 'being to the right of Ghengis Khan'.

Lets face it, this is what most of the political parties say of each other and if it's good enough for them, it's is good enough for me.

MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 22:09:36

I think it is interesting that you should cite the influence of religion dd. I thought about it as an influence on left wing ideas but the precepts of christianity have for so long been used to keep 'the masses' in their place. As exemplified by the words of the Victorian hymn, All Things Bright and Beautiful :'The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them high and lowly, And ordered their estate.' (Interestingly, when I googled the words to make sure I got them absolutely right the first two pages with the lyrics I found missed out that verse; too non PC for modern times I presume).

Yes, non-conformism placed great importance on the virtues of self improvement and hard work, even the equality of all before God, but did it articulate the importance of individuals to the system? Marx seems to me to have clearly said that in their labour workers have a 'product' equally as valuable to 'the system' as wealth and property and a valid tool for effecting social change. I don't know enough about late Victorian radical thinkers to say with any confidence that Marx was a key influence on them. It just seems likely to me.

I'm not altogether sure about Victorian philanthropism, either. A lot of it seems to have been focused on making its objects into useful members of the existing order of society rather than ensuring a more equable distribution of resources.

I agree whitewave that a great deal was achieved towards improving the condition of all members of society and I agree that the influences dd cited were strong but could they be described as of a 'left wing' nature or would 'left wing' more properly describe the Marxian idea of a person's labour making them of equal worth/value as the people who use their labour?

MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 22:14:26

Lets face it, this is what most of the political parties say of each other

The problem is, Monica, that perceptions of 'left wing' have changed over the years. That what is now labelled as 'left wing' in the UK would have been nearer to 'centrist' a decade or so ago. And, as others have pointed out, still is 'centrist' in other countries.

daphnedill Fri 12-May-17 22:43:07

No, I don't think they were left wing in the Marxist sense.

I don't think that British socialism has much to do with Marxism - and that's precisely why we're experiencing tensions.

Sorry, but I'm dealing with a couple of personal issues. I'll come back to this when I have time. I could probably write a book!

PS. I wish people would "think" about Daily Mail headlines. Corbyn is no Marxist. He's an enemy of the status quo - that's it.

durhamjen Fri 12-May-17 22:54:46

There's an awful lot in this list of what I consider to be far-right.

thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2017/05/12/completing-churchills-thought-vote-for-corbyn/

I don't think it's possible to consider the May government to be centre right like Cameron's was. The very fact that Ukip consider May to be doing acceptable things for them just shows how much further to the right she is.

paddyann Fri 12-May-17 23:19:19

Keir Hardie founded the Labour party on the principles of Christianity....care for the poor the sick,the vulnerable .The welfare state as we KNEW it was socialism ,no more though .The tories shout about christianity and yet they set out to target these very groups of people in need.Look at the headlines over the past year .Immigrants taking our jobs and houses,Old people need to work for their pensions its not a right its a benefit...the disabled have money cut and mobility rights cut leaving many on the breadline and housebound and then theres the ATOS fiasco where the government pay an agency billions to save paying less than that fee to people in real need.This disunited kingdom has gone to the dogs,the rich get richer and the poor die .....or thats what the tories hope !

durhamjen Fri 12-May-17 23:33:38

Not many Tory Samaritans, paddyann.
Actually, they wouldn't be allowed in the country, would they?

Jalima1108 Fri 12-May-17 23:44:47

Old people need to work for their pensions its not a right its a benefit
That has always been the case though and it has been known as a 'benefit' at least for the past 12 years because I complained about that description when I first was 'awarded' what I had paid in for.

The problem is, Monica, that perceptions of 'left wing' have changed over the years. That what is now labelled as 'left wing' in the UK would have been nearer to 'centrist' a decade or so ago
hmm So where would that place New Labour then - presumably if what is now labelled as left wing here was nearer to centrist a decade ago that would make New Labour well to the right of centre.

Times change and perhaps a true centrist party is what people are desperately hoping for and that is why so many voters are disillusioned and quite frankly bewildered at the moment.

Jalima1108 Fri 12-May-17 23:47:52

Would you welcome Samarians here then djen confused

MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 23:49:10

Sorry to hear you're having problems dd. I hope they're soon resolved.