Group responsibility?

POGS, i compared people listening to the head of the RC Church and an Imam apologising to the world , I think the Pope has more clout than an Imam from Cardiff

Fascinating article - thank you for posting that.

Oops! Posted b4 final dentence:similar mindset to the perpertrators of other mass killings e.g. columbine etc.

I have mentioned the fact that a high number of terror perpertrators are loners/converts/mentally unwell. I have read similar b4. May even have been same person.

It is about the ' potency ' of the Leaders not necessarily the numbers involved.

The Leaders and Imam's are not as you appear to believe not listened to or have clout in their communities, or indeed the wider Muslim community. They are very influential but I think you do know that really.

The Pope is head of the world wide RC Church, naturally more will listen to him than an Imam from Birmingham, or Manchester or Cardiff or any of the Mosque's in UK

Yes, I have read it. It actually says something I had thought in the back of my mind but not known how to express.

Yes, very good!

Well! I have just read this fascinating article by Kenan Malik in which he has convinced me that my arguments up thread are rubbish.

Here's a tiny sample:
"Radical Islam, and a hatred of West, is not necessarily what draws individuals into jihadism. It is what comes to define and justify that jihadism."

Do have a read. It really is good.

I also think that having exclusionary faith schools is a bad idea. Religious freedom is essential but children should be learning the same overall universal ethics together whatever their parents' religion or lack of it.

In response to the post just before mine, I think you are right, pogs. Muslim leaders do need to speak out and condemn more than they do. It is often said that some of the radicalisation of the people who become terrorists happens in mosques in this country. Respected and respectful Muslims need to do more to stop that from happening. Is it unreasonable to suppose that it is other Muslims who are in the best positions to prevent terrorist radicalisation among their fellow mosque attenders?

"Seeing all Muslims as one group is bad, being made aware that they are NOT all one group is good."
I agree 100% Elegran.
I've written before about eldest son and family living in Kuwait - got a video today about DGD as part of the school swimming team - all races, including Muslims. They even did a school production of Grease.
I heard an interesting comment from someone on LBC, that when people live in their natural country they tend to be moderate. If they emigrate (for whatever reason) they tend to be more extreme to protect their identity. You can even see that with many of we British living in France.
What that implies for attitudes to immigration I leave to others to guess.

I believe very strongly that the Muslim community has to stand up and speak out against the extremists. There is still so much anti Muslim feeling. UKIP BNP some right wing papers are still peddling hate and using the extremists as their excuse. A few weeks ago I had someone tell me that all Muslims are terrorists and he is a well educated man! We still have a way to go before we all recognise that all faiths can have their extremists.

I should have said that being honest about religious/political terrorism goes hand in hand with making a strong point that there has to be an acceptance that not All people from a certain political/religious group are to be held to blame for the actions of the minority.

It is an ideology that has responsibility, or rather the people holding to a particular ideology do. And that ideology (Wahabism if what I'm reading elsewhere is correct) does emanate from part of the global Muslim population because it comes, via extreme interpretations, from the Quran.

This does not mean in any way that all Muslims are guilty. Of course it doesn't and I'm sure most are prefectly decent people. Certainly the Muslims I have known all are.

But I think the repeated mantra that the appalling actions of a tiny minority of Muslims have "nothing to do with Islam" clouds the issue that it is warped interpretations of Islamic scripture that fuel the terrorists' behaviour, just as warped interpretations of the Bible fuelled Christian crusades and inquisitorial cruelty.

With regard to your last paragraph in the OP, pen, it would appear from available evidence (people claiming to be Muslim who then commit atrocities) that a small number of people brought up as Muslim are more susceptible to ISIS-style brainwashing in the same way that people brought up as Christians were susceptible to the killer crusading and iquisitorial mentalities that some Christians inflicted on the world in times past.

Saying this is not a criticism of the best parts of Islam or of all Muslims any more than it's a criticism of the best parts of Christianity or all Christians, but both most definitely had "something to do with" the respective atrocities committed, whether we like it or not, in the name of either religion.

But, no, I don't think 'normal' Muslims have a duty to speak louder than the rest of us about such things as what happened on Monday night. Everyone who is not an "evil loser" has an equal responsibility to stand up and be counted in favour of freedom and tolerance.

Can I ask a hypothetical question please.

If there was a known group of say catholic priests in a paedophile ring should the Pope not be asked to condemn them?

Nobody in their right mind would think ALL catholic priests are paedophiles but it is surely a duty/responsibility for the head of the catholic church to acknowledge that the deed has been carried out by those of his doctrine and say 'Not in my name'.

I have no concern over the aftermath of the Manchester bombing taking place there was not an immediate condemnation by Muslim Leaders/Imam's to be honest but I am concerned over the eternal problem of shutting down debate, that's how I see it at times.

I do feel there is a strong case for Muslim Leaders/Imam's to be vocal over terrorism and the connection to the Muslim community. That does not imply I hold ALL Muslims responsible but an acceptance that they are the holders of the power to engage with their community and are the only ones their community will hold in enough reverence to listen to, accept the word of.

There was a representative on the Daily Politics from the Quiliiam Foundation who more or less said what I feel . Perhaps Luckygirl would be interested to watch it as it more or less concurs with her view too, which has to my mind been twisted a tad by some posters into some kind of undertone of a racist comment, (more than one thread if I'm not mistaken), nothing is further from the truth as far as I see it. Apologies if I am mistaken

Given the topic/the OP is referring to, namely the terrorist bombing by a Muslim who holds an ideological , fanatical, radical belief of Islam (not deflecting to other stories!) ,
it is surely perfectly acceptable to not to be admonished, ill thought of, chastised for keeping to the facts in this particular occurrence to the Muslim faith. That is going to be the topic of conversation.

It appears to me that if we cannot talk honestly about the barbarism of the terrorist and attribute it to 'which ever' cause , whether it be political/religious etc. without some kind of permanent defense of the wider community/religeon then it does nothing more than to tip toe around around a serious problem.

BTW Annie, I was not replying to you but the poster before you - not that it matters now.

Constant dripping wears away stone. Constant exposure to the fact that the majority of Muslins are NOT jihadists could lessen suspicion and make it more likely that more people will dare to be friends with them. (Yes, I know that some people will never reach that state).

When people are faced with suspicion, they become defensive, and some progress from there to radicalisation. Nurturing the image of the average Muslim as a peaceloving individual (by anyone who can do so, including those peace-loving individuals themselves) could lessen those feelings of alienation.

That would surely cut down the number of radicalised suicide-bombers who have lived in this country?

But that is what I am saying, ab Seeing all Muslims as one group is bad, being made aware that they are NOT all one group is good.

On the DM on line there is a clip of an Immam praying in the central square in Manchester, with a very elderly Jewish lady, both paying their respects and both looking visibly very upset. He is comforting her, I believe they are both part of an inter religious group. It's very moving, I felt emotional watching it.

Read today about the Polish parents killed together waiting for their girls at the concert, now those poor children are orphans. So sad for all those young people who perished, including the beautiful 8 year old girl.

But Elegran, how can there be friendship and good will when people are seen as groups , it's the same as placing animals and birds into groups

Elegran, thank you for the small L ?. Do you really believe it possible to change the views of a racist , a homophobic etc by these means ?

That there is a difference between a normal run-of-the-mill Muslim and a murderous multiple killer.

Not in your eyes, ab because you are a true multiculturalist and liberal (with a small L before anyone thinks I am saying that you will be voting liberal on June 8th! You've been allocated arbitrarily to enough different parties lately.)
There are plenty of people around whose eyes will see only a cliche Islamist in every Muslim. They need it said to them again and again that there is a difference, and if a lot of Muslims say it as well as a lot of non-Muslims, perhaps it will sink in. The best defence against extremism is friendship and goodwill between ordinary people.

Not in your opinion Luckygirl it was what you wanted, for me he was humiliated , I suppose easier for me to understand ,I am not English