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Group responsibility?

(112 Posts)
Penstemmon Tue 23-May-17 16:13:08

In people's shocked response to atrocities carried out under the name of ISIS style ideology there is often an expectation that people who are Muslim should condemn the actions more loudly that non-Muslims.

I appreciate that the perpetrators use the Islamic faith to justify their warped and evil actions but they are not spiritual or mainstream in any way. The majority of people are shocked and horrified by the murders in Manchester. People who are Muslim are as different from each other as any people from other faith/non faith groups.

Is it right to expect louder condemnation from people who are Muslim? Does that not keep linking communities of Muslims with the crimes when in fact they are no more responsible than anyone else.

It is my belief that ISIS wants to create tensions between faith groups across the world so that when pushed to the wall numbers of Muslims would be more susceptible to the brainwashing and become ISIS cannon fodder. We need to resist this.

janeainsworth Tue 23-May-17 16:42:30

penstemmon I agree with you that it is not logical, nor should it be expected. No-one expected that Catholics or Protestants should be louder in their condemnation during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, depending on who had perpetrated the latest atrocity against who.
I think it is part of the modern thing of being expected to show emotion generally, as whenever there is a terrorist attack, social media is full of people signalling their condemnation, as if every right-minded person doesn't condemn terrorism.
A prime example being the criticism of the Queen for her restraint after Diana's death.

Anniebach Tue 23-May-17 16:42:40

I so agree with you Penstemmon, as a practising Christian I never thought and was never asked to speak out against the atrocities in NI because I was a Christian , so why should those of Muslim faith be expected to speak out . We should unite and stand with Muslims not single them out .

Should all members of the armed forces have spoken out against the Sgt who shot an injured man? No.

The more we link Muslims with ISIS the more racists will attack Muslims, driving more to become ISIS fodder .

No man is an island entire of it's self , any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind

ethelwulf Tue 23-May-17 16:51:24

It’s so disappointing yet sadly predictable to see reports of a mindless, indiscriminate backlash from certain individuals against Moslems in response to this latest outrage committed by a small number of evil extremists. Our Security Services have had considerable success in recent years in uncovering and neutralizing numerous potential terrorist attacks on the UK mainland, based on detailed intelligence. Do these anti-Moslem idiots seriously believe that such intelligence has been gathered by infiltrating a Christian, blonde, blue-eyed, Anglo-Saxon Daniel Craig 007 lookalike into ISIS, Al Khaida, or other extremist group, all done at phenomenal personal risk of an agonising, protracted death if discovered? Probably.. because they are deeply ignorant. The Moslem Council of Great Britain has immediately and unconditionally condemned the atrocity, and expressed the hope that the guilty parties will receive appropriate punishment “both in this life and the next”. The terrorists are aiming to generate both division and hatred through these barbaric acts. We must resist these aims at all costs, and remain united across all races and creeds within our multi-cultural society, determined to continue to live our daily lives, enjoying those personal freedoms which were so hard-won over the years. We shall overcome…

M0nica Tue 23-May-17 16:54:44

There is no religion that advocates or condones the merciless murder of innocent people, especially children, for a religious or political cause. The 'IS' terrorists are no more islamic than IRA terrorists were Roman catholic because they came from a predominantly catholic population and had been brought up in that faith.

I think the problem arises because most religions are hierarchical and have clear national leaders, for catholics the Archbishop/Cardinal of Westminster, for C of E, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Islam does not work like this, each mosque has its Imam and he is not part of a hierarchical organisation, so when atrocities like this occur, there is no one High Imam who can stand up as the representative of British Muslims and speak with authority to condemn these attacks.

With no central authority for reporters to contact and interview to provide a universal Islamic view, it makes Muslim reaction appear muted when in fact they are as horrified by these events as the rest of the population

MiceElf Tue 23-May-17 16:55:23

Well said Penstemmon, I'm quite shocked at the level of ignorance and prejudice that has been displayed.

An equivalent scenario would be to expect every man in the nation to condemn 'men' after one of them has murdered his partner, or to expect every Conservative Councillor to loudly condemn Cllr Nick Harrington for his racism.

I could go on but to blame an organisation or religion or political party or gender for the actions of a few wicked members is beyond stupid.

daphnedill Tue 23-May-17 20:51:27

Well said anniebach!

I'm not a Christian, but I'm white, British and was christened. I do not feel that I'm responsible for everything that white British Christians do.

MargaretX Wed 24-May-17 09:29:18

Not all Germans were responsible for the holocaust, but many Germans visiting Britain find them selves accused at some time or another. Even children coming on school exchanges.

When faced with an atrocious event like the one we saw in Manchester we need someone to blame, to ease the pain, and are not thinking straight. The social media which should know (and behave) better relish these moments.

sunseeker Wed 24-May-17 10:04:51

We all know the terrorists practice a perverted form of Islam which the vast majority of Muslims do not recognise. I do wonder whether there is sufficient condemnation of this warped form of Islam from some Imams. Some time ago I was talking to a Muslim friend who had heard one of the hate preachers speak. He went to the Imam of his Mosque and asked that he speak out against the preacher, the Imam refused to do so, no reason was given although my friend thinks it was fear of reprisals. My friend now worships at a different Mosque.

Elegran Wed 24-May-17 10:34:16

It might not deter fanatics, but it might make an impression on the non-Muslim people who are being targetted, and prevent them from believing that all Muslims are the same. That in itself could lead to better relationships, which could mean fewer people alienated enough to join terrorist groups.

Penstemmon Wed 24-May-17 12:16:44

But there are Muslims in Manchester, London etc. where atrocities have taken place. ISIS does NOT discriminate but kills anyone , of any faith or none, to try to achieve its caliphate ideals.

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 12:26:36

As Mosques have been attacked is it little wonder some choose to remain silent ?

I can speak out against Christians who murdered staff in an abortion clinic without fear of my parish church being attacked

Luckygirl Wed 24-May-17 12:57:10

The issue here is the perceptions of the UKIP brigade and others - and it is spreading throughout society.

A bomb goes off - blame all Muslims; there is a terrible crash involving a lorry on the M6 - blame all East European lorry drivers etc. etc. People - all people - need to speak up loudly about this. They need to say - loudly - that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with ISIS and are decent folk living lives of kindness.

The opposite message is very loud and it will not go away without the right noise being made to oppose this view. And it is fuelled by quite understandable fear in the face of atrocities.

I think we ALL have group responsibility to oppose this in our own way; when it comes to presenting the positive aspects of Islam, those best able to do so are Muslims themselves - they know their own faith, and they know the aspects that can be used to justify atrocities - just as fundamentalist Christians can quote the OT to justify uncivilized behaviour.

I know that moderate Muslims place themselves in the firing line (literally) if they put their head above the parapet to make their voice heard and can fully understand their fears. They, quite reasonably, just want to be left
in peace to get on with their lives, as we all do.

Suggesting that the Imams and lay Muslims are best placed to try and counter the growing hatred is not to place blame on them but simply to recognise that their knowledge places them in the best position to do this. And doing so would send out an important message that might counter the slide into divided communities and hatred of minorities.

Some people find this statement unacceptable (I should know!), but that does not mean it is wrong! I will don the tin hat again!

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 13:20:34

Why should they have to keep speaking out to calm the likes of UKIP , the BNP ?

Penstemmon Wed 24-May-17 13:29:54

The thing is I believe many Imams and community leaders from Muslim communities do work closely with police and other community groups to work cohesively to prevent the cancer of terrorism spreading. It is just not splashed about all over the place. I have been on a few multi-faith committees and knew a few Imams, who of course are as varied as priests and vicars in Christian communities. And of course, in the way that thousands would tick a Christian box on a form but never go to church there are people who would tick the Muslim box but never attend mosque!

Luckygirl Wed 24-May-17 14:24:25

Why might they not Annie? - apart from fear of reprisals, which is wholly understandable. Presumably many Muslims wish to curb the fears about Islam that are being engendered by terrorists' actions. It is in their interests to do so.

Now I know that it would be great if they had no need to do this - but we have to live in the real world.

If I held a faith that was being denigrated and associated with terrorist acts, I guess I might feel the need to defend the true situation - I might wish I did not have to, but reality is a pressing motive that cannot be avoided.

The problem lies in the fact that it is no longer just UKIP and the BNP who hold these views - every Manchester sends a few more people in the direction of blanket fear of Muslims. Why would it not, when this is what they mainly hear on the news about that faith? They need to hear the other side of the story, and who better to present that than those who know it best?

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 14:54:30

Luckygirl, when a group of Welsh nationalists were setting fire to holiday homes owned by English people I was in England in a St Davids Day wearing a Daff, I was sworn at, should I have explained to those people I was sorry holiday homes had been burned and explained not all Welsh people were members of Meibion Glyndwr and not all Welsh people supported the burning of those holiday homes?

MiceElf Wed 24-May-17 14:55:01

Clearly someone doesn't read the right newspapers.

Only a few here as it would be tedious to indicate them all.

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 14:58:05

If they stood in the balcony of Buck house so thousands could listen those who choose to hate would claim it was all lies

Luckygirl Wed 24-May-17 15:16:43

Yes indeed - Muslims, like the rest of us do wonderful things - hat is no the issue.

What is is the perceptions that are engendered by the actions of the few, and the repercussions of this are the spread of more UKIPism.

And yes Annie - it would have been entirely reasonable to say that you did not agree with the burning of English-owned homes.

The fear engendered by acts such as in Manchester is a potent force - and it takes a potent force to counter it. I wish that were not so.

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 15:49:53

Really Luckygirl, even though I wasn't asked just sworn at?

Luckygirl Wed 24-May-17 16:03:45

Yes Annie.

I do not think that we are all a million miles apart on the issue here. We are all agreed that the message from the peace-loving law-abiding Muslims needs to be heard - some think it is getting through and I am less optimistic.

Anniebach Wed 24-May-17 16:19:03

A spokesman for .manchester Mosques has just made a statement, it sadden me he felt forced to defend innocent Muslims to please those who share your views Luckygirl, it certaintly didn't give me a snip of pleasure, just sorrow an innocent man had to come on to and plead innocence . Days of the Raj still with some in my opinion.

Luckygirl Wed 24-May-17 16:53:48

But he MUST do it and I hugely admire him for it. Well done that man. My views haven't forced him into doing it - the terrorists have. You are at odds with the wrong person here Annie - I too wish that he was not put in that position, but I am glad that he can see the reality of what is happening and has taken the brave step of speaking out.

My view, that puzzlingly you seem to find deeply unacceptable, is that everyone must do their own bit to help counter the image that the terrorists encourage. It is not me encouraging that image!

Faced with what they and everyone is faced with, there is a need to respond in a practical way, as this man has done, rather than wishing that things were different.

MiceElf Wed 24-May-17 17:02:40