In people's shocked response to atrocities carried out under the name of ISIS style ideology there is often an expectation that people who are Muslim should condemn the actions more loudly that non-Muslims.
I appreciate that the perpetrators use the Islamic faith to justify their warped and evil actions but they are not spiritual or mainstream in any way. The majority of people are shocked and horrified by the murders in Manchester. People who are Muslim are as different from each other as any people from other faith/non faith groups.
Is it right to expect louder condemnation from people who are Muslim? Does that not keep linking communities of Muslims with the crimes when in fact they are no more responsible than anyone else.
It is my belief that ISIS wants to create tensions between faith groups across the world so that when pushed to the wall numbers of Muslims would be more susceptible to the brainwashing and become ISIS cannon fodder. We need to resist this.
I disagree Elegran, speaking to those type of English people would have been no different to anyone not English speaking to the EDL
"not forced into humiliation"
The world is a tough place - we ALL need to speak out against the wrongs, even more so when they are claiming justification from our values.
Many many people have spoken about the bombings - quite rightly - and that includes Muslims. Their desire to speak out is likely to be motivated by the fact that the ghastly people who do these things are doing it in their name - in the name of their faith. A grim scenario and a grim choice. they are not being "singled out" at all - except by the terrorists.
The man who spoke out is forced into humiliation - he is defending his position and good fro him.
We are all called upon to do things we do not want to do because the world and its inhabitants are imperfect - that does not mean we should not do it.
I spent a long career defending the rights of minorities. Believe me, they did not feel humiliated when I was walking alongside them in my fight for their rights. I encouraged them to see a wrong as a wrong and helped them to right it. Humiliation did not come in to it - facing up to realities did.
The actions of the man who killed in Manchester yesterday do not reflect on all of the faith in my eyes
And you asked, ab whether you should have pointed out to those who blamed you for the burning of English-owned homes because you were Welsh that not all the Welsh condoned such actions. Well, yes, it might have been a good idea if you had done. It could have disabused them of their mistaken image of every Welshman/woman attacking the nearest English-owned home with a lighted torch.
But in the eyes of some people they ARE seen as a group, just as "Westerners" or "Christians" are seen by some extremist Jihadists as one group. The Jihadists don't even differentiate between Christians now and Christians at the time of the Crusades, who set off to free Jerusalem from them. Seeing people as identical clones leads to dehumanising them and turning them into mere cyphers to be hated and mown down like characters in a video game.
People like D. Trump and his wish for a blanket ban on all Muslims reinforce this polarisation. So do the exhortations of the ISIS leaders. That is why it is a good thing if the gulf between genuine followers of Islam and these berserker suicide bombers needs to be made clear by everyone who can.
Saying so does not mean anyone is "forced to defend innocent Muslims to please those who share your views" Rather, he has been forced to defend innocent Muslims by the actions of not-so-innocent pseudo-Muslims, which in the public eye reflect on all of the faith.
And Muslims are not a group .
I think it is fair, why should Muslims be singled out for opinions on the bombing
I don't think that's fair.
Other groups are asked to give their views about atrocities committed by extreme members of that group - no one thinks of them as 'subhuman/other'. And we all know what journalists etc. are like.
Well luckygirl is happy a man has felt forced to be humiliated , I am not
From Twitter
Muslims being asked what we think re Manchester, as if any decent human would defend murdering kids, shows we are viewed as subhuman/"other"
Luckygirl When British football fans go on the rampage in Europe, do you think that ordinary British people have a duty to condemn them publically?
But he MUST do it and I hugely admire him for it. Well done that man. My views haven't forced him into doing it - the terrorists have. You are at odds with the wrong person here Annie - I too wish that he was not put in that position, but I am glad that he can see the reality of what is happening and has taken the brave step of speaking out.
My view, that puzzlingly you seem to find deeply unacceptable, is that everyone must do their own bit to help counter the image that the terrorists encourage. It is not me encouraging that image!
Faced with what they and everyone is faced with, there is a need to respond in a practical way, as this man has done, rather than wishing that things were different.
A spokesman for .manchester Mosques has just made a statement, it sadden me he felt forced to defend innocent Muslims to please those who share your views Luckygirl, it certaintly didn't give me a snip of pleasure, just sorrow an innocent man had to come on to and plead innocence . Days of the Raj still with some in my opinion.
Yes Annie.
I do not think that we are all a million miles apart on the issue here. We are all agreed that the message from the peace-loving law-abiding Muslims needs to be heard - some think it is getting through and I am less optimistic.
Really Luckygirl, even though I wasn't asked just sworn at?
Yes indeed - Muslims, like the rest of us do wonderful things - hat is no the issue.
What is is the perceptions that are engendered by the actions of the few, and the repercussions of this are the spread of more UKIPism.
And yes Annie - it would have been entirely reasonable to say that you did not agree with the burning of English-owned homes.
The fear engendered by acts such as in Manchester is a potent force - and it takes a potent force to counter it. I wish that were not so.
If they stood in the balcony of Buck house so thousands could listen those who choose to hate would claim it was all lies
Clearly someone doesn't read the right newspapers.
Only a few here as it would be tedious to indicate them all.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslims-raise-money-manchester-suicide-bombing-explosion-salman-abedi-a7752256.html
www.leicestermercury.co.uk/muslim-organisations-in-leicester-condemn-manchester-arena-terror-attack/story-30348230-detail/story.html
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-arena-attack-muslim-leaders-condemn-suicide-bombing-ariana-grande-explosion-a7751576.html
inews.co.uk/essentials/news/muslim-council-britain-manchester-attack-horrific-criminal/
www.hulldailymail.co.uk/manchester-arena-terror-attack-hull-mosque-leader-condemns-islamic-state-atrocity/story-30349351-detail/story.html
Luckygirl, when a group of Welsh nationalists were setting fire to holiday homes owned by English people I was in England in a St Davids Day wearing a Daff, I was sworn at, should I have explained to those people I was sorry holiday homes had been burned and explained not all Welsh people were members of Meibion Glyndwr and not all Welsh people supported the burning of those holiday homes?
Why might they not Annie? - apart from fear of reprisals, which is wholly understandable. Presumably many Muslims wish to curb the fears about Islam that are being engendered by terrorists' actions. It is in their interests to do so.
Now I know that it would be great if they had no need to do this - but we have to live in the real world.
If I held a faith that was being denigrated and associated with terrorist acts, I guess I might feel the need to defend the true situation - I might wish I did not have to, but reality is a pressing motive that cannot be avoided.
The problem lies in the fact that it is no longer just UKIP and the BNP who hold these views - every Manchester sends a few more people in the direction of blanket fear of Muslims. Why would it not, when this is what they mainly hear on the news about that faith? They need to hear the other side of the story, and who better to present that than those who know it best?
The thing is I believe many Imams and community leaders from Muslim communities do work closely with police and other community groups to work cohesively to prevent the cancer of terrorism spreading. It is just not splashed about all over the place. I have been on a few multi-faith committees and knew a few Imams, who of course are as varied as priests and vicars in Christian communities. And of course, in the way that thousands would tick a Christian box on a form but never go to church there are people who would tick the Muslim box but never attend mosque!
Why should they have to keep speaking out to calm the likes of UKIP , the BNP ?
The issue here is the perceptions of the UKIP brigade and others - and it is spreading throughout society.
A bomb goes off - blame all Muslims; there is a terrible crash involving a lorry on the M6 - blame all East European lorry drivers etc. etc. People - all people - need to speak up loudly about this. They need to say - loudly - that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with ISIS and are decent folk living lives of kindness.
The opposite message is very loud and it will not go away without the right noise being made to oppose this view. And it is fuelled by quite understandable fear in the face of atrocities.
I think we ALL have group responsibility to oppose this in our own way; when it comes to presenting the positive aspects of Islam, those best able to do so are Muslims themselves - they know their own faith, and they know the aspects that can be used to justify atrocities - just as fundamentalist Christians can quote the OT to justify uncivilized behaviour.
I know that moderate Muslims place themselves in the firing line (literally) if they put their head above the parapet to make their voice heard and can fully understand their fears. They, quite reasonably, just want to be left
in peace to get on with their lives, as we all do.
Suggesting that the Imams and lay Muslims are best placed to try and counter the growing hatred is not to place blame on them but simply to recognise that their knowledge places them in the best position to do this. And doing so would send out an important message that might counter the slide into divided communities and hatred of minorities.
Some people find this statement unacceptable (I should know!), but that does not mean it is wrong! I will don the tin hat again!
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