A strong statement?

I have appreciated the responses to the OP, quite a lot of thought provoking posts.

Just another thought, big bright thing in the sky illuminates the whole world, we call it the sun, in France, solei, in other countries, other words, but no one has ever argued over it, let alone fought or gone to war.

So, we accept that there is only one sun, no problem with that.

So if there is some sort of God/Supreme Being, why can't it be that he/she just happens to be referred to by different names, God, Allah, Buddha, whatever? No need to fight, argue, just accept that we talk about the same thing, but in a different language.

And of course if there IS a supreme being, then it must have been around before people, and therefore before language, especially written. So we have the oral tradition, but like Chinese Whispers, by the time it's gone round a few times, the original words have changed, but I suppose there will always be someone who absolutely insists that what was said was not "love thy neighbour" but "loathe thy neighbour". (figuratively)

Is there anybody on GN who is Muslim and finds many posts offensive and ignorant? I'm genuinely interested in knowing, so PM me if you don't want to post in public.

Monica, you may remember some attempted stabbings that took place at an East London tube station a while back. The perpetrator was Muslim, as we know it. However one man(a muslim) who tried to stop him shouted "you're no muslim bruv"...so I think their point is that these people go against the peaceful beliefs of Islam and therefore are not recognised as Muslims when they breach the "rules" of the Queran.

I think they see young women dressed western style out in pubs etc & sometimes unaccompanied as decadent & immoral so need to punish them. In their perverted minds. Maybe thats why they targeted th Grande concert.

Is it just me, or has anyone else detected a misogynist (sp) element to these killings. There have been a couple of reports of the killers seeming to go out of their way to kill young women. For instance, in one case a young woman was hiding behind a counter, one of the killers spotted her and turned back to kill her.

I take the points made that these misguided young people are confused regarding their identity, and feel they are between two worlds. Nevertheless I can't help feeling dismayed by the sheer numbers of British born and raised who seem to be willing to kill and maim their fellow citizens. How does that make them feel any better?

My feeling is that perhaps the imams could arrange and perform the funerals, but stress that they are doing it for the families and those left behind, absolutely not for the suicide bombers or car drivers. In that way, they wouldn't deprive the [sometimes] innocent families from closure, but not sanctify the actions of the dead.

Can you imagine how the people of Africa felt when Livingston(e) rocked up with his bible !

So depressing. Round and round we go with generation after generation being sucked into these aberrations.

It is still unbelievable to me that Hitler was supported in his actions by generals who went home to their wives & children knowing what they had done to so many innocent people . It is fanatical behaviour, the perpetrators for what ever reason have a mind set by which they consider what they are doing to be not only acceptable but their misssion to carry out these actions in the name of some twisted ideology

We need to stop the funding of these radicalism by cutting it off at source I.e. The Saudis.

Hands up those who believe that will happen ..........................anyone?

There is indeed no logic whatsoever. Once the terrorists ceased to care about their own mortal lives, then the ability to counter this with threats of death ceased to have any deterrent power - not only do they not care if they die, they actively wish for this.

I am not sure that the crusaders were a radical offshoot; but I acknowledge that the Muslim community in general wishes the terrorists to be regarded in this way. Those outside the community only have their word that these radical ideas are not becoming part of the mainstream as we are told - I hope that they are right for all our sakes.

We need to stop encouraging this radicalism with the support of separate education. Children need to share their education in order to become tolerant adults.

As long as the human race has existed there has been a deep-rooted need to provide some sort of spiritual dimension to our existence. This need has been met by the establishment of often complex belief systems, many and varied, which typically have a "God" or "Gods" at their centre, linked to a "creation" paradigm, and to the concept of an "afterlife". Also as long as the human race has existed, these belief systems or "religions" have sometimes developed radical offshoots which have resulted in brutal persecution of those who are considered non-believers or heretics. Whilst mainstream religions generally promote a message of love and co-existence, these extreme variants operate at the other end of the spectrum, and encourage violent confrontation. What we are seeing today is nothing new, and sadly, is merely history repeating itself. Those who are attracted to such extreme groups are unlikely to react favourably to even the most damning public condemnation from more moderate sources, and may even be encouraged by such sanction. The usual logic simply doesn't apply...

The death penalty in this country was based on teachings from the bible, it was not Christians alone who brought about the abolishment , it was people of faith and no faith combined, United who brought about the end of this 'eye for an eye ' thinking

We cannot extricate Islam from the action of these terrorists any more than we can extricate the barbarous acts of the crusaders from Christianity - their actions are tied in with their religion.

It may make us all feel more comfortable to say that this is not "real" Islam or Christianity, but that takes us no further forward. The fact is that it is a version of each of these faiths that has underpinned these actions.

It is only fellow believers/religious scholars who can influence/counteract these versions from their knowledge of their scriptures (and their version). So it is good that these Imams are using their actions (or in this case inactions) to drive home their message that their version does not encompass these cruel acts, so those who perpetrate them are cut off from the rites of that religion (or their version thereof).

The "social" element of what drives these mainly young men is very problematical. We could say that integration is the answer - but that is not something we can enforce. We welcome a diverse community into our schools and colleges, but we cannot influence what goes on in their homes. If Muslim families do not want their children to be in this confused moral situation, they have two choices: embrace integration or separate themselves into closed communities. Neither is the full story: the resistance of many muslims to integration (especially for their women, some of whom do not even get the opportunity to learn the language of their adopted country) is generated from within their culture and we can lead the horse to water (by extending the hand of friendship and integration) but we cannot make it drink.

The other alternative of more separation feels very retrogressive and to my mind unacceptable - hence my opposition to more religious schools via the free school system or academies.

So what can we do? For those who do not want to integrate we are powerless to move things on - that needs to come from within.

But let us not pretend that religion has nothing to do with this. The mantra that it is nor "real" Islam is wearing thin. It is a version of Islam and arises from an interpretation of Muslim texts, in the same way that cruel Christians have found justification for their aberrant acts within their texts.

Many of the young men who have committed atrocities have not, according to their colleagues, family and associates, been inside a mosque for a considerable time. We need to have Imans saying to their congregation that this is not the way, and does not lead to paradise. If this message is heard from every religious leader it must have effect on the very young before they can become radicalised and disaffected. I can't understand why this isn't happening already because surely a true Muslim would never condone the killing of innocent humans.

Muslim women don't seem to appear in the media very often when atrocities occur. There is a room for women at my local mosque but I don't think it is used much. It is always the men who observe the prayer 5 times a day and who pray at the mosque. How much influence do women have, I wonder.

The Quran states that if you spill the blood of one man you spill the blood of all mankind - so these people are not following the true teachings of Islam. Far from entering paradise they will go to Jahannam (hell) where there are 7 circles of punishment, the deepest being reserved for the worst sinners. The Imams refusing to say prayers for these terrorists are sending a strong message to Muslims.

As for those saying Catholics didn't apologise for the IRA can I point out the when the IRA were carrying out their atrocities they were not doing so in the name of the Catholic church, theirs was a political cause.

IRA terrorists were not "protecting" Catholics, they killed and maimed many, they were fighting for a united Ireland. Many Catholics condemned them, as many Muslims condemn Daesh and ISIS. A friend of mine commented how disappointed these killers would be when they met Allah and he told them they wouldn't be going to paradise after all ...

They had to do something though, didn't they? I think it's a reasonable thing for them to do. All Muslims would be tarred with the same brush otherwise. Unradicalised Muslims tend to be fairly pacifist in these situations which can't help but give the impression that they don't really mind, when in reality they do mind very much and feel ashamed that their religion is misused in this way.
I always remember that poor man (in Scotland, I think) who was killed because he 'wasn't Muslim enough' simply for wishing a customer a Happy Easter.

Trouble is they are not following the rules of their beliefs anyway, to say if you kill you will go to heaven which is absolutely not true. So why should they be granted a Muslim funeral. The British Muslim council has said that are not muslims they are terrorists and what they have done will not get them into heaven. It is Ramadan and they also mentioned this as well as a highly sacred time.

True.

The Spanish Inquisition has a lot to answer for:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

...including many myths.

Thankfully Christians with people generally are more enlightened these days.

Love and forgiveness is a tenet of Christianity but it didn't stop people being horribly executed for 'heresy'.

These terrorists are being political not religious.

And here is an authoritative and very interesting paper on the long tradition of their murderous radicalism:

www.islamagainstextremism.com/articles/nercnev-the-kharijites-historical-roots-of-the-ideology-of-extremism-and-terrorism.cfm

In short they have convinced themselves that only the purist form of their religion will restore the leadership (superiority) of its believers over the rest of us; particularly from the days of their Empire in Europe.

Clerics not administering their funerals is an attempt to further show the disapproval of their communities but the reference shown above provides a fuller description of their rebuttal.

I'm not sure if love and forgiveness is a tenet of all religions.

We hear constantly that integration is the answer yet a poster did say Muslims here should March to show they did not support this violence, surely integration means any March should be all not only Muslims