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A strong statement?

(55 Posts)
phoenix Mon 05-Jun-17 18:25:38

Evening all, not sure if this should have been under religion?

I've just heard on the radio that several mosques are refusing to say the traditional prayer for the dead for those responsible for the events in London.

I applaud their decision, especially as it would seem to go against usual practice, but will it result in further action from extremists?

I very much hope not.

M0nica Mon 05-Jun-17 18:52:28

I do not support this approach. At the heart of almost all religions is a belief in the love and forgiveness of God and in Christianity, a belief that even at the last minute the sinner may have seen the light and realised the wrongness of their actions.

IRA bombers were always granted catholic funerals.Sometimes, admittedly, they became ceremonies of glory and that I do think unacceptable, but I see no reason why these men should not be given a muslim funeral quietly, possibly at night, and their bodies consigned to unmarked graves. Many of these men have families who did not support them and tried to change them and funerals are as much for the living as for the dead.

Baggs Mon 05-Jun-17 19:00:13

A natural reaction, I think, phoenix. At my most cynical I wonder if it is seen as a way to avoid backlash against the respective mosques of the terrorists.

I've no truck with the hypothetical situation put forward by m0nica. If gods who forgive exist then the god in question will forgive if there is repentance regardless of what happens to the dead bodies of the criminals.

I just feel sorry for any relatives of such people, especially if they tried to bring up their sons properly, but I don't think the kind of funeral they get will make any difference to the agony and shame they must feel.

Luckygirl Mon 05-Jun-17 19:09:40

But it sends an important message.

Christinefrance Mon 05-Jun-17 19:25:01

Yes I'm not sure I agree with that either but as Luckygirl said it does send out a message.

Baggs Mon 05-Jun-17 20:15:34

Yes, and some people have been calling for more "speaking out" from unradicalised Muslims. Here is one method of doing that.

PamelaJ1 Mon 05-Jun-17 20:49:13

I'm not familiar with the rituals of a 'warriors' death but I believe that the members of diesh think they are going to be rewarded for their sacrifice in the name of Islam by recieving a wonderful afterlife, complete with the provision of many virgins ( if they have any left).
If the lack of a proper funeral means they don't get the rewards they are expecting then I think it's a very good thing. It may make them think again?

varian Mon 05-Jun-17 20:49:14

Sadiq Khan spoke very well in the vigil today, denying that these murderors had any reason to claim that they were Muslims.

Anniebach Mon 05-Jun-17 20:56:04

I have little knowledge of the Muslim Faith, if like the Christian Faith they believe in a loving and forgiving God who knows the secrets of all hearts then I disagree with their refusal to pray for the dead, if they were Christian and I refused to pray for their souls I would be setting myself above the wisdom and love of God,

TriciaF Mon 05-Jun-17 21:02:17

In some Muslim countries suicide bombers are awarded almost the status of saints.

M0nica Tue 06-Jun-17 16:22:04

I disagree profoundly with Sadiq Khan, I do not mean by that to condemn muslims because some of their members are terrorists. The IRA terorists saw themselves as catholics and 'protecting' their own catholic community.

The problem we need to address, which I mentioned on another thread, is that in our society we have a large number of disaffected and alienated young men, whose origins lie in muslim countries and who have been brought up muslim. These young men fit neither into modern western society, nor into the tradition of tolerant Islamic belief. Most of them are rootless, they move around between countries, have dropped out of education, are jobless, have played with drugs and alcohol, are looking for some purpose in life where they can feel some value.

The discipline and hate of extreme Islamic cults like ISIS seems to them to offer the purpose and value that they are looking for and in a society where they can find no place while they live, the promise of sybaritic pleasures and value in heaven after death has many attractions.

What we need to do is find ways to help these young men find value and stability in their existing communities.

f77ms Tue 06-Jun-17 17:01:48

What Baggs says , I believe they are doing what they think is right in denying these murderers prayers for the dead . It is time for strong condemnation from the Mosques .

petra Tue 06-Jun-17 17:09:58

Exactly what Yasmin Alibhai Brown has been saying for years. She has taught many Muslim young people and they tell her that they are between two worlds.
While at college they are in our western world and then back home they have to revert back to the dark ages ( her words)
This situation is difficult enough for young educated muslims so l can clearly see how young uneducated Muslims are easily radicalised.

Smileless2012 Tue 06-Jun-17 17:26:38

Good points Monica but perhaps if Muslims do not believe, because of the atrocity of their acts, that they should receive the traditional prayers of the dead, they may think again as Pamela posted, about getting their reward in the here after.

I've always believed that these murderers should not be referred to as Muslim terrorists or Muslim fanatics because they're not Muslim. The Muslim community is wanting to distance themselves from this evil and maybe this is one way they feel they can do so.

There are disaffected and alienated young men and women in all walks of life but they do not choose to murder and maim in order to feel as if they are some value.

Luckylegs9 Tue 06-Jun-17 17:34:03

I applaud the Inmans for their decision, not before time. I cannot see how it could inflame anyone to more violence, it will be in their warped view of God anyway..These terrorists are not Muslims, a true Muslim abhors their barbaric acts. Let them be buried at sea, like Bin Laden. The messAge has to go out that what they do in the name of faith, is the very opposite of every civilised and loving person. Love is what matters, not hate. We must all stand as one.

M0nica Tue 06-Jun-17 18:03:19

I disagree with you Smileless. These young men are muslims. Just as IRA terrorists were catholics.

Once we start saying they are not muslims we are doing exactly what ISIS is doing in saying anyone who says they are a muslim but does not embrace the ISIS version of Islam is not a true muslim. We are saying anyone who says they are muslim but does not embrace what we decide is an acceptable form of Islam is not a muslim.

Most religions are very broad churches (sorry for the pun). Christianity embraces a wide range of divergent views, which includes at its edges small cult groups that are dangerous to their members and wider society and those elements of their behaviour needs be controlled. Islam is no different. It has several broad widely supported versions and on its very edges these extremist cults, which need to be curbed when they threaten wider society, but this does not make their members any less muslim.

kittylester Tue 06-Jun-17 18:11:31

I feel for their families if they are denied the usual rites for their sons but maybe it sends a message that they must have been aware of their sons' radicalisation or, at least, had suspicions and should have told someone.

Crafting Tue 06-Jun-17 22:27:55

"God forgives those who truly repent" so if they ask for forgiveness and are truly sorry I am sure God will forgive them. However, there did not seem to be much sign of them wanting forgiveness during their acts of violence.

If this decision by the mosques goes anyway to making these people think twice about their decisions to harm others then it will be a good thing. Also it might make them realise that not everyone of their faith agrees with or supports their actions.

norose4 Wed 07-Jun-17 07:40:32

Well it could do Phoenix., but it seems to me those who are likely to engage in extremists actions will turn anything into an excuse/ reason for carrying out their barbaric acts. They are not rational in the way they think, so have a limitless list of excuses for their warped idealism.

whitewave Wed 07-Jun-17 08:03:52

Suppose we accept that one of the reasons the young muslim is becoming radicalised is because they dont feel accepted and between worlds.

We them consider the black community who have/are experiencing the same thing.
They undoubtedly have major issues that need to be addressed like knife crime
But there is no evidence thst they reject our way of life and hate us to the point of wanting to commit mass murder.

So im not at all sure that argument stands.

I think the main answer is to be found in the mosque and source of funding for the radical tradition.
Until we are prepared to tackle that and it is highly unlikely at the moment than we will continue to see this situation getting worse.

norose4 Wed 07-Jun-17 08:27:03

Yes I agree Whitwave & the more 'ordinary' ( for want of a better word) muslims that speak out against extremists. or who can spot the signs of a person becoming radicalised & pass on this information the better, but it is a very difficult problem to detect, if only our thoughts were visible,, on second thoughts perhaps not !!

Nelliemoser Wed 07-Jun-17 08:44:50

We have to acknowledge that over the last 100+ years that Britain and it's Empire, France and a few other colonial nations as well have badly treated a lot of people.

There is still a lot of resentment about what us colonial nations have done. These current terroist attacks are not acceptable but the legacy of this is still in the minds of people who were oppressed by nations like ours.

whitewave Wed 07-Jun-17 08:51:57

nellie that is also true of the Blacks

whitewave Wed 07-Jun-17 08:52:28

We have to tackle the radical funding

rosesarered Wed 07-Jun-17 08:54:28

If that was the case Nellymoser they would have gone to France to commit their atrocities and not done them here ( latest killings in London) as we never had anything to do with Morrocco.
In the previous outrage, the man was Libyan, his parents had come here with him to escape Gaddafi, and they all went to Libya to fight against Gaddafi.So they must have been happy with UK actions in Libya as it had the same purpose.