So what do we want?

Sorry, last post wasn't actually specifically aimed at Annie; aimed at anyone who believes the 'household budget' myth.

You are still arguing from the wrong perspective when it comes to what the country can/cannot 'afford'. As a socialist, Annie I would have thought that you would be enthusiastic about the revelations economists have made about how money is created and controlled.

Have a look at the 'Economics of running a nation' thread and read the link I posted to Simon Wren-Lewis's article. Or watch the Anne Pettifor video which dd posted on another thread (can't remember which). The idea that government spending is a BIG CON. That's not how it works at all.

Or read Richard Murphy's Tax Research blog (though I know people don't like him because of a very brief association with Corbynomics)

Try this one for yet another explanation of why the 'running the national budget like a household budget' is wrong

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/06/12/the-one-thing-we-cant-afford-is-the-institute-for-fiscal-studies/

Or just trying googling the phrase. You'll get lots of results.

Anniebach labourers on low wages will not pay tax on their wages, so will not be funding others. Do you think tuition fees should be charged for 6th form students? If not why should uni students have to pay? We fund all sorts of education and it should be free wherever possible. The idea that uni is somehow special and should be charged for is a hangover from when only a privileged few went there.
gillybobhave you raised your concerns about the meals with the school? Consumer action is always the best way to get things changed. Means testing is expensive and counter productive, every penny spent on administration could be funding a meal for a child.

We have had links telling how Corbyn was involved in the NI peace process, it was a lie. I no longer read links posted, they are usually thoughts of far left bloggers.

Jalima, he doesn't know Wales exists.. Most of his promises are for England only

I would leave the free nursery places just as it is.

I believe what I hear and learn from economists including the IFS. I also attend various business focus groups. i do not read links on Gransnet as they are ALWAYS biased towards one particular party.

I would be more than happy to pay more personal tax (although not increased corporation tax or job tax) as I think this will harm the overall economy) as long as there was a clear policy of where this extra tax would be spent. I would not be happy for it to go into a giant free for all public sector pot.

My DGC are 11, 9 and 7 trisher The school "meals" in their school are so bad that they will not eat them. They each take a nutritious packed lunch from home (well from me, mostly lol).

I think free school meals should be available to all those who need them, but this should be means tested and not a free for all situation. I also think that there should be someone going around and seeing what children are being offered, which in the case of my DGC's school is often rubbish.

Gillybob do you think people are lying to you? We can afford these things if we choose to do so. That is what the links people put on, with the views of economists, tell you. You are choosing to believe it is not possible.

If it is possible, should we do it?
If it is possible, would you be prepared to pay a little (pro-rata to income) towards it?

Or will you just keep saying it is not possible while it happens around you?

There are not universal free school meals in Wales which is under a Labour administration but there are in England under a Tory government


Does JC know?

So wold yo object to your children being helped out by free meals in schools gillybob - of course key stage 1 already have this. Or free nursery places for the younger children?

I couldn't argue with any of that Anniebach and in an ideal world it would be amazing to provide everything for everyone... but in a real world we surely have to prioritize. JC's promises were just unbelievable.

I was shot down (well to be fair, I am often shot down)on a thread a few weeks ago for saying that we gave my husbands winter fuel allowance to our DS and DDiL to help them pay their fuel bills. They have three small children and it is a real struggle for them. I said that we felt very guilty indeed for getting it as we both still work. Someone (I can't remember who) was very nasty and accused me of bragging about my "charitable act" or words to that effect when the point I was making was that I think giving this allowance to people who don't need it is very unfair when there are far more deserving cases.

Exactly Jalima, free meals for all is just daft as scrapping tuition fees for all. If tax payers are to pay for lunch for children it means labourers on low wages are paying for lunch for children of MP's, teachers, doctors, accountants etc.

I'd give him 5 years then, when things had not changed or many people were worse off the Tories would get back in with a message of hope for the country.

[sigh]

Most definitely Gilly. No government has ever provided all this labour leader has promised. It I just looks like a list of - this for the elderly - this for students- this for the jams- this for those in poverty - this for the homeless - this for school children - this for those who can't afford to buy homes - this for the sick, these should bring in the votes. I really see this manifesto as the most blatant attempt to buy votes.

gillbob
We can afford more but we are going to feed the children of affluent families and scrape tuition fees for the children of very wealthy families, and employ music teachers for every school in the country is unrealistic.

Someone pointed out that this would be retrieved in tax from the wealthy, but if these services were not provided to those who can afford them, there would be even more money to provide them for those who cannot.

Maybe this thread should have been "what do we want in an ideal world v what we can actually afford"

In the main no. Many do so as they like the wine!!! For us it is the whole peace and tranquility and the life of simple country people. In ways such as going out for the odd meal or for days out it is the same as being in the UK. I miss the family but life is so much more peaceful here. Sometimes - like now - the heat is a disadvantage!

So most of the oldies who retire to Spain or France don't so because of the milder climate then?

I am a socialist and a realist Trisher, and I do know society has moved on since the Blair and Attlee governments . I think it stupid to believe these 5% high tax payers and businesses are going to cough up without any problem

I want the homeless housed, state education improvements, the NHS protected, but we are going to feed the children of affluent families and scrape tuition fees for the children of very wealthy families, and employ music teachers for every school in the country

Could be those who believe we can afford to improve state education, supply free free school meals to all, free music lessons and heaven knows how many musical instruments , scrapping tuition fees , proving good social care, saving the NHS, and much more have allowed rhensekves to be brain washed

Or they simply have seen the proof that it is possible, believe - unlike the politics of despair above - that is can and should be done. It is possible to keep following the sort of right-wing message of your post as the Conservatives have been doing or you can choose to have a more social-democratic state but it is a choice. Each one has it's cost but you chose which is the right cost to pay.

But they are so different to us Anya. Their climate different, the food they eat different, their lifestyles different, family dynamics different, working patterns different etc.

This will really not make sufficient difference for us not to compare their tax/GDP percentage Gillybob. For every problem they have we have and equal and different one. Each country deals with these issues but it really has no bearing on whether a country chooses to fund decent services or not; that depends on mind-set within the population and - overwhelmingly - the political stance of the government.

I was suggesting that you did not have your facts right about why people move to the continent Gilly. Warmer climate may well be a factor but unlikely to be the main one.

Are you really a socialist Anniebach? even the PLP have realised that this is what people want and particularly what the under 30s want. And the whole lot was costed in the labour manifesto, which has been supported by many prominent economists. Is everyone brainwashed? Or are you just stuck in a rut still believing in 'New" Labour when society has moved on?

Could be those who believe we can afford to improve state education, supply free free school meals to all, free music lessons and heaven knows how many musical instruments , scrapping tuition fees , proving good social care, saving the NHS, and much more have allowed rhensekves to be brain washed

And that Dyffryn brings us full circle.

There's not one of us who doesn't want these services, either for themselves or others who they love.

The problem seems to be that some people see them as 'pie in the sky' which I just don't understand. And that we can't afford them. Please don't allow yourselves to be brain-washed. We can afford them.

I've shown that the National Debt is higher than ever before so austerity isn't the answer, though it may have seemed the way back to a healthy economic. Our services are underfunded, our workers (especially in the public sectors) are over-worked and discouraged, our old folk are fearful for their future care, our roads are a disgrace (I nearly drove into a pothole on a motorway last week) and we show all the signs of a nation in decline.

We can pay for things to improve. We ought to be prepared to stomp up a bit more in taxes and the super-rich and big corporations should contribute too.

Or we can just carry on as we are